§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
§ 4.1 p.m.
§ Mr. T. L. Iremonger (Ilford, North)I am taking this opportunity of asking my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation to reverse a decision taken by his predecessor in refusing a request by the Ilford Borough Council for a zebra crossing in the High Road, Ilford, at a point near its junction with Grove Road.
I am raising this matter on the Adjournment because of a complaint which I received from a constituent, a Mrs. Clark, who had recently had a grandchild killed in the road at the place where we are asking for a zebra crossing. This letter reached me supported by fifty signatures from neighbours of Mrs. Clark's who are also constituents of mine.
On receiving this letter, I immediately arranged to have a meeting with my constituents who were concerned, together with the local representative of the ward, Councillor Bysouth, and Councillor James, Chairman of the local Road Safety Committee. I went to this meeting in the Chadwell Heath School and I found that the room was packed, with over 70 people present, and we discussed this matter for over two hours.
I want my hon. Friend to know that I put to my constituents very frankly, fully and I hope honestly and forcibly the arguments which had been used by his right hon. Friend in turning down the original request, and I am bound to say to him that, far from being convinced of these arguments, my constituents were very angry indeed. I came away with the feeling that I ought to ask him to reconsider this matter, and to commend to him the idea that we should be given a zebra crossing in this place and that police supervision should be arranged at all times when children are proceeding to and from the school on the south side of the road.
I want briefly to explain the special considerations which ought to be borne in mind. First, with regard to the 1584 children in the neighbourhood, there are in three streets—Essex Road, Railway Street and Avenue Road—over 100 children who have no gardens to play in and who cannot play in the streets because there has recently been set up in one of them a large depot for buses and lorries, and their mothers naturally do not think that they ought to be allowed to be there unless they are being watched all the time.
Therefore, if these children are to get out into the fresh air at all they have to go to the recreation ground which is some way down the High Road, on the other side of the road. They cannot walk down to the crossing at Barley Lane which is controlled by traffic lights on the same side of the road and cross at the lights, because if they were to do that they would have to go for some hundreds of yards along the High Road where there is no pavement on their side of the road. Therefore, they are absolutely bound to cross the High Road at a point where they have no protection of any kind. My constituents feel that a zebra crossing here would be of very great assistance to them.
I put to them what my hon. Friend has told me, that a zebra crossing does not, in fact, provide any real protection; that it is a mere legal protection, and, if a child does not fully understand this, he might, in relying upon it to give him safe passage, run into danger rather worse than if he were trying to cross the road without a zebra crossing. The mothers of the children were not convinced at all. They said that they were perfectly capable of training their children to make proper use of the zebra crossing, that if they did that they would have confidence in letting them cross the road, and until they had done that they certainly would not take the risk.
Apart from the need for a zebra crossing for the children when going out to play, they need also very special supervision when going to and from school. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will be able to assure us that he will see to it that arrangements are made with the police for the children to be safeguarded as they cross the road at school times.
The children are not the only ones concerned here. The old people come into this very much. At the meeting to 1585 which I have referred, we had the benefit of the advice of the chairman of the local branch of the Old-Age Pensioners' Association. She said that there are many members of her branch living in these streets on the south side of the High Road. They have to cross the High Road to get to the post office and the shops, which are all on the north side. She told me that they generally expect to have to wait for up to ten minutes before they find a break in the traffic so that they can get across, and they normally do not like crossing unless they can get some able-bodied person to escort them.
It is bad enough in the daytime, but in the dark the old people's eyes find it very difficult to distinguish the sidelights of oncoming cars from the other lights in the neighbourhood, and they are quite terrified at the prospect of having to make this hazardous sally. They do not, therefore, like to go out in the evening and their social activities and visits to the association branch are very much curtailed. They feel that this is a great handicap under which they are suffering, and, on their behalf, I was asked to make it clear that a zebra crossing would enormously increase the amenities of the area for them.
I am very well aware of the trouble that my right hon. Friend and his advisers have taken to determine whether we should have a zebra crossing here by the ordinary census methods. I explained this to my constituents, but they were most contemptuous of the whole conception and they thought that the conclusions which had been drawn from the census were wrong and misleading. In the first place, they argued that the traffic along that road is growing progressively worse. We are not at the moment in a very good position to judge, because of the restrictions on petrol, but I think it is fair to argue that, since the census was taken, traffic had been growing progressively more heavy and will continue to do so when normal traffic is resumed.
In the second place, they argued—I regard this as a strong point and associate myself without reservation with it—that, in judging whether one should or should not have a zebra crossing, it really is not satisfactory to base one's decisions on arguments such as those to be derived from a census of traffic and pedestrians. 1586 One should look at the actual needs of the people in the area rather than at the number of cars or pedestrians involved.
I also found that there was very little sympathy with the Minister's point of view that if there is a zebra crossing in a place where there is not a continuous heavy flow of traffic and of pedestrians motorists come to disregard it and expect always to find it empty and, therefore, to drive on even when pedestrians are trying to cross the road. It is very reasonable and proper not to accept that. I think that pedestrians and motorists ought to regard zebra crossings as sacrosanct and, regardless of whether there is much traffic or whether there are many pedestrians, the proper caution ought to be observed on both sides.
The need for this zebra crossing very much outweighs the disadvantage which I think my hon. Friend is considering from that point of view. I hope, therefore, that he will not give too much weight to that. I ask him to give the very fullest weight to these representations, and I submit that really this is not a decision which ought to be taken by a rule of thumb judgment or on a census return or even on technical and expert advice, of which he has plenty. This is a matter which ought to be judged by the social and human problems involved.
I should like my hon. Friend to take into account the particular nature of this little community in my constituency which is marooned. It is cut off on the south by the railway line, and the people who live in these streets are shut in on the north by what is for the old people and the parents of young children a river of death and terror. I say to my hon. Friend that if he is not immediately convinced that he should alter his view on this matter, it would be enormously appreciated by my constituents in this area if he would allow me to bring to see him a deputation of these people so that they may be assured that he has got a full measure of the very strong feeling that they have on this subject.
I am not suggesting that my constituents want to be fobbed off. as it were, with an interview. What they want is not an interview; they want a zebra crossing and police supervision for their children at school time, but I feel that a meeting might be helpful in that it would 1587 persuade my hon. Friend of the very real strength of feeling on this matter in my constituency. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will give most sympathetic consideration to these arguments and assure us this afternoon that he is prepared to help these people in the way that they consider would be most effective.
§ 4.13 p.m.
§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. G. R. H. Nugent)I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) on his success in the Ballot so that he could raise this subject this afternoon on the Adjournment. I also congratulate him on the lucid and persuasive manner in which he has done it. I can assure him that nothing could have made it clearer to my mind that this is a very serious matter and that this is a difficult and dangerous piece of road about which he is making representations today.
I found this problem among many others when I came to the Ministry of Transport, and I have read the past correspondence on the subject. If I may say so, I read with approval my hon. Friend's letter. It was extremely well set out and it made a very cogent case. I have studied the whole subject afresh to see whether I could agree with him and whether I found any reason for disagreeing with the view which was taken before by my right hon. Friend. I accept the seriousness of the problem here, and indeed the accident figures all too sadly confirm it, with six accidents to pedestrians in the past two years, including the fatal accident to the young child referred to by my hon. Friend. Five of these six accidents in the past two years were to children. I am afraid I still cannot agree that a pedestrian crossing is likely to prevent this kind of accident.
I should like to say a few words about the history of pedestrian crossings in this country, for it provides the background to our views on them. They were introduced in the nineteen-thirties, and were associated with the respected name of Lord Hore-Belisha, and the result, when they were introduced, was a distinct improvement in road safety. Motorists respected them, and pedestrians 1588 welcomed them. However, as the numbers increased—and, naturally, wherever there was a dangerous road crossing the local people asked for a pedestrian crossing—the respect for them decreased. The result was that by about 1950 there were very large numbers of them, which all of us will remember, and as they increased in number the safety which they gave steadily became less and less.
It was clear something had to be done, and in 1951 the Government took the decision that a drastic reduction was necessary if pedestrian crossings were to have any value at all. The intention was to retain under a half, and a very big and drastic reduction was made. The crossings which were preserved were to be those where there was a heavy volume of continuous vehicular traffic and where the pedestrian traffic was also heavy and continuous.
The result of that drastic reduction in the number of crossings has undoubtedly been beneficial. Nowadays the general reaction of both motorists and pedestrians is to show respect for them, and in the main they undoubtedly give a very valuable and substantial measure of safety. Our policy, naturally, is to preserve that increased measure of safety which we have won with considerable difficulty and to prevent an increase again in the number of crossings, for that would once more undermine the value which these crossings have for road safety.
I have to stress, in reply to my hon. Friend, a fact which I understand his constituents are reluctant to accept, that these pedestrian crossings do not and cannot provide absolute safety. The safety they give depends first of all on the correct use of them by pedestrians and secondly upon respect for them by drivers.
As for the latter, experience has shown that drivers do not respect a crossing the use of which by pedestrians drops or varies significantly. I agree with my hon. Friend that it is regrettable, but it is just a fact. At Ilford there is a heavy flow of pedestrians in the morning, that is, between seven o'clock and nine o'clock, and again in the evening from five o'clock to seven o'clock, but during the day, although there are still pedestrians using the crossing, their number is relatively light, too light, in our opinion, to justify a pedestrian crossing, since our experience 1589 is that this volume of pedestrian traffic is below that which generally commands the respect of the drivers of vehicles.
As to the proper use of crossings by pedestrians, a pedestrian's right of way on a pedestrian crossing starts only when he has stepped on to the crossing. At that, when the driver sees him, the driver must pull up, but inevitably sometimes drivers fail to do so. Perhaps the road is wet, perhaps some incident occurs, and, for one reason or another, a driver cannot pull up. Perhaps he is going too fast. Perhaps the pedestrian steps on to the road when the vehicle is so close to the crossing that the driver cannot pull up before reaching it. That is a very important point, because it underlines the absolute necessity for mature judgment by pedestrians in using crossings if they are to give the safety that we so much desire. Young children are most unlikely to have that mature judgment. Safety for them is only possible in crossing roads either with their parents or with police accompanying them.
The reference made by my hon. Friend to the training of children by their parents is admirable. This is just what we hope every parent does, and we for our part take comprehensive measures to encourage local education authorities to train all children in the schools. We make substantial grants to assist them in the training which goes on very generally and most helpfully. The improved figures of accidents, serious as they are, show the extent to which this training is having a very valuable effect. Even with training, however, young children just cannot respond, and cannot be expected to respond, immediately. It will take several years of training and the development of their own judgment and presence of mind before they can.
Usually, it is impossible to put an age at which we could say that children would be safe. I think that most people would feel anxious about children who are either infants or in the primary schools, with which we are mostly dealing here. Burdensome as it is on the parents, and I quite agree that it is, one has to accept the fact that on roads of this kind the only safe way for really young children to get across is for their parents to accompany them. If we were to put a pedestrian crossing here and these young children used it, it would give them a 1590 completely false sense of safety. Unless their judgment is mature, as I have indicated, they might well use the crossing when a vehicle was too close and be involved in an accident.
I hope I have convinced my hon. Friend and his constituents that it is no lack of humanity which prevents us from doing what he says. It is because we are convinced from our experience throughout the country with this kind of problem that to put down a pedestrian crossing here really would not on balance add to the safety of children or adult users.
On the question of police help, I am able to tell my hon. Friend, what I think he already knows, that the police have been most forthcoming in helping the children in crossing here. The police patrol is there regularly and sees that the children cross the road first thing in the morning, when they come back again at mid-day, when they go back after the mid-day meal and finally back in the evening. The police are there for twenty minutes on each occasion. It must be a considerable burden to them, but they recognise the importance of it. Outside this, it really must be for the parents of the children to see the young ones across the road, or, alternatively, where older children are sufficiently trained, no doubt they can help.
With the old people, the arguments are to some extent the same. Some old people are alert, their judgment is good and they can cope with the problem of judgment which is necessary on a crossing, but those who are perhaps infirm, whose eyesight is not good, and so on, may very well not be able to use a zebra crossing with safety to themselves.
So I say to my hon. Friend that I have looked at the matter most carefully and sympathetically, and that I hope his constituents will accept that. I realise that, naturally, in any neighbourhood where there has been injury to or the death of a child, people feel desperately keenly about it and want something done. They feel that there must be some way of making it less dangerous for the children. But I do not believe, on balance, that this would make it safer for them. It is just a fact that this is a very dangerous bit of road, especially for children, and parents and teachers and all 1591 concerned must do their best to reduce the danger there.
Our refusal here is because we have a general responsibility for road safety throughout the country. We are constantly studying it and taking measures to try to improve it. Our experience is that to put down crossings in these areas does not, on the one hand, add to safety and tends to reduce the general respect for crossings on the other. And it is that general respect which today gives additional safety to hundreds of thousands of people crossing the roads throughout the country.
Having said this to my hon. Friend, which I agree is disappointing for him, but which I hope will be convincing, I hope that his constituents will read what I have said and will see that we are concerned, at least as much as they are, to prevent these accidents. We must see that the methods that we have for dealing with road safety continue to be effective, but in this context we do not believe this one to be effective.
However, I have looked at one possible alternative and that is the placing 1592 of a central island in the road, something which always appeals to me. It makes for considerable problems of traffic flow and it necessitates a certain width of road. The existing road is rather narrow to put a central island in it. I am not sure about the possibility of widening it, but I have asked my officials to examine it to see whether it would be possible. If we could put a central island in the road it would make it a much easier job for pedestrians, and especially children, to cross because they would have to look only one way at a time.
We shall certainly investigate this. I do not want to raise my hon. Friend's hopes too high, because this has been looked at before and rejected, but I am most anxious to do what I can to help his constituents. If we can proceed with it we shall do so. In any event, I will let my hon. Friend know the outcome of this further examination. I assure my hon. Friend that we are most concerned to do everything we can to increase road safety.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes past Four o'clock.