HC Deb 14 March 1957 vol 566 cc1288-91
10. Mr. Chapman

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education what proposals he has received from the Yorkshire West Riding County Council for increasing the number of university awards it offers; to what extent this represents an increase upon previous proposals; and how its policy now compares with that in Lancashire.

Sir E. Boyle

My noble Friend has just received details of the revised selection arrangements for university awards which the West Riding Local Education Authority proposes to introduce. The Authority estimates that these should result in an increase of some 50 or 60 new awards for entry to universities next autumn, but I cannot make a useful comparison between the effects of their policy and that of the Lancashire Authority.

Mr. Chapman

Why cannot the Ministry do this? Ls he not aware that his predecessor in his present office estimated that the West Riding would need to give another 260 scholarships in order to come up to the standard of Lancashire? If this is all that Yorkshire is now producing in the way of improvement, would it not be a good thing to send the proposals back with the Press cuttings of the national condemnation that has been made?

Sir E. Boyle

Quite apart from the point of principle, I think that numerical comparisons between adjoining authorities can be slightly misleading, because exactly the same arrangements by the authorities could produce different results in different areas of the same size.

Mr. Hale

But though the noble Lord doth itch To emulate the gentle Stitch And each succeeding day seems keener On overtaking Wilhelmina. Does not this answer clearly show Him plodding the fatal path of Flo?

Sir E. Boyle

I cannot think of a suitable impromptu reply on the spur of the moment.

19. Mr. Chapman

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education what special considerations apply to the record of the 12 local education authorities which grant less than 14 university awards per 1,000 of the school population as compared with that of the 12 which offer 36 to 60 awards per 1,000; and to what extent these considerations explain the major part of the discrepancy.

Sir E. Boyle

It is likely that these variations are the result of a combination of different factors, including the number of pupils staying on at school after the age of 16, the opportunities for further education and employment in the area and the traditions of the area.

Mr. Chapman

But that is not an answer to the Question. I asked to what extent these considerations explain the major part of the discrepancy. Does it not remain the case, when all the considerations are allowed for, that there is a great variation in generosity among local authorities throughout the country? I want to be as conciliatory and helpful as possible. Will not the hon. Gentleman agree to examine this situation and make a statement on what the Ministry proposes to do to get the policy of the more generous authorities applied by the laggards among the local authorities?

Sir E. Boyle

Of course, there are variations in the policies of local education authorities, and I will bear in mind what the hon. Member says. But we have no evidence to suggest that this means that any substantial number of suitable candidates is prevented from going to a university. I have taken note of the points which the hon. Gentleman made in the debate last Friday.

20. Mr. Chapman

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education what action he proposes in order to persuade the Yorkshire West Riding Education Committee to include the L.D.S. diploma in dentistry in the list of courses for which it offers university awards and in the list of students who can be reconsidered for awards on the basis of their work, after their first year of study.

Sir. E. Boyle

My noble Friend has asked the local education authority to reconsider their decision.

Mr. Chapman

Will the hon. Gentleman go a little further and ask them to reconsider all these restrictions? Is he not aware that I can give him a file of letters from disappointed parents in this area who have children whose opposite numbers in neighbouring authorities have been given grants? Would it not be better to get them to make a complete re-examination of their policy?

Sir E. Boyle

It is not proposed at the moment to make any special investigation into this local authority, and I think we must wait to hear the authority's response on the case which the hon. Member has in mind about the L.D.S. diploma. Certainly I take note of the points which he has raised.

Mr. T. Williams

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that anything Lancashire can do Yorkshire can always do better?

24. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education whether he will abolish the means test in those cases where State scholarships are awarded to universities.

28. Mr. Beswick

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education if he will take steps, by revising the present parental means test procedure, to ensure that grants and awards to university entrants are not reduced.

Sir E. Boyle

No, Sir. The Government do not at present intend to introduce any amending legislation.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that among a series of bad answers this is really the worst one, and does he realise that there are many parents anxious to provide higher education at the universities for their children who are finding great difficulty because of the operation of the means test? What is the use of his noble Friend talking about the need for better education, including technological education, the great need for which in this country is so urgent, when he continues this means test?

Sir E. Boyle

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that later this year my noble Friend will be examining the arrangements for assessing university awards, in consultation with representatives of the universities and the local authority associations. But I cannot, I am afraid, say more this afternoon.

Mr. Beswick

Does the Minister appreciate that a means test cutting across an ability test is no less objectionable because it hits hardest at the so-called middle classes or professional classes? Would he bear in mind also that the reform asked for in these Questions would find much wider acceptance than any proposal to give an Income Tax allowance in the matter of education?

Sir E. Boyle

This is, I agree, an important subject, and I take the hon. Gentleman's points; but I cannot go further this afternoon.

Lord Balniel

Can my hon. Friend say how much it would cost the taxpayer to abolish this means test?

Sir E. Boyle

I am told that the cost of abolishing the test for all university awards would be about £3½ million this year in respect of United Kingdom students at universities in England and Wales.

Mr. Paget

Does the Minister consider it fair to deny a boy education which he has earned because he has mean parents?

Sir E. Boyle

This is, of course, a matter on which one has to weigh many factors on both sides. As I say, my noble Friend will be considering the whole subject of university awards later this year.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the Minister aware that it is not a question of parents being mean, but a question of the present very heavy burdens imposed on many parents who are anxious for better education for their children?

Sir E. Boyle

Of course, we are fully aware of the burdens and of the situation as it affects parents.