HC Deb 14 March 1957 vol 566 cc1292-6
14. Dr. King

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education what legislative changes he proposes in the apportionment of statutory responsibility between the Minister and local authorities, particularly as regards the present Ministerial responsibility for adequate school buildings, size of classes, provision of separate primary and secondary education and other duties under the 1944 Act, as a result of the proposed new structure of State grants to local authorities.

Sir E. Boyle

My noble Friend is not yet in a position to say what changes will be necessary in the Education Acts to give effect to the Government's proposals for a general grant to local authorities. It is not proposed to make any changes which would affect the apportionment of statutory responsibilities in regard to such matters as the hon. Member mentions.

Dr. King

Is the Minister aware that the spectacular advances of local education authorities since the war have been possible only because of the percentage grant; that local authorities still have a lot of work to do, even to get to the minima laid down by the 1944 Act; and that they are going to find it exceedingly difficult to carry out the duties laid on the Minister's shoulders by the Act—and which he passes on to them—unless he continues to co-operate with them in this way by a percentage grant? Will he remember that the Minister's fine speeches on education, which have inspired the country, are in danger of being jeopardised if the block grant means that some of the responsibility carried by the local authorities is to be met 100 per cent. out of their own money?

Sir E. Boyle

We cannot debate this now but, as it is a matter of some importance, perhaps the House will forgive me if I give a slightly longer supplementary answer than usual. My noble Friend sees no reason why the change in the method of calculation and payment of grant should affect the statutory responsibilities of the Minister and the local education authorities so far as concerns such matters as the hon. Member has mentioned in his Question. My noble Friend does not intend to give up controls which are needed for the maintenance of standards or the carrying out of national policy.

Mr. M. Stewart

Does the Minister remember that the Minister of Housing and Local Government, when announcing this scheme, said that it would mean much greater independence for the local authorities, with—and he used the phrase— a great increase of responsibility"?—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th February, 1957; Vol. 564, c. 1083.] In view of the answer which the Parliamentary Secretary has given us, where will that "great increase of responsibility" occur in the field of education?

Sir E. Boyle

I would rather not pursue this matter today, except to say that the details of the proposals will be worked out in consultation with the local authority associations and also with the teachers so far as they are concerned.

23. Mr. Swingler

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education if he will give an assurance that local education authorities will be not less favourably treated in the matter of financial grants from central government under the proposed system of general grants than hitherto.

32. Miss Bacon

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education if he will give an assurance that under the block grant scheme no local education authority will receive less from the Exchequer than it receives at present.

Sir E. Boyle

It is of course the Government's intention to maintain a fair and reasonable balance between grants and rate-borne expenditure. The details of the proposed new arrangements are being discussed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government with representatives of local authorities and I am unable to make any statement at present.

Mr. Swingler

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that that is an extremely unsatisfactory reply and does not answer the Question? The Question asks whether he will give an assurance that local education authorities will be not less favourably treated. Is he unable to give this assurance, because, if so, that will create a great deal of anxiety in the education world? Will he not go back to his noble Friend in the Cabinet and ask for a reversal of this policy?

Sir E. Boyle

I really cannot go further within the scope of a Parliamentary Answer, especially while these discussions are still in progress.

Miss Bacon

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his answer is really very evasive? In view of the fact that more money will be needed to be spent on education in the next few years, not less, can he not at least say that no local education authority will receive less from the Exchequer than it now receives?

Sir E. Boyle

I really cannot go beyond what I have said in both this and previous Answers.

Mr. M. Stewart

May we have this quite clear? The hon. Gentleman has been asked whether he can give an assurance that local education authorities will be not less favourably treated than they are now. He has been asked that, and is he telling us that he cannot at least at this moment give that assurance?

Sir E. Boyle

This obviously is an extremely important Question. I think the point which was raised just now about the Minister's recent speech on the proportion of the gross national product being spent on education is a clear sign that my noble Friend realises fully the importance of the service. But to expect me to give any assurance on this highly important subject of the general grant while the discussions are in progress is really to expect more than the hon. Member himself would be likely to do were he in my position.

Mr. Stewart

Would the hon. Gentleman realise that what is worrying us is the contrast between his noble Friend's obvious realisation of educational needs and his own inability to give an assurance of this kind?

Sir E. Boyle

I think the hon. Gentleman can safely have confidence in my noble Friend and the Government to do full justice both to the claims of education and to the importance of responsibility in local government.

Mr. Swingler

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the extremely unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment of the House.

35. Mr. M. Stewart

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education what representations he has received from teachers concerning the possible effect on education of the Government's proposed changes in local government finance; and what reply he has made.

Sir E. Boyle

In a letter dated 1lth February, the General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers stressed the importance which the union attached to a grant formula related to a percentage of approved educational expenditure. My noble Friend replied that he would be glad to discuss the Government's proposals with the union at an appropriate stage.