HC Deb 06 June 1957 vol 571 cc1445-8
19. Mr. Robens

asked the Minister of Labour what progress he has made towards setting up national negotiating machinery in the banking industry in view of the fact that the National Union of Bank Employees has over 49,000 members and is denied the right of collective bargaining by the greater proportion of British banks.

Mr. Iain Macleod

This problem has been the subject of discussion between officers of my Department and the various interested parties on a number of occasions.

A part from the National Union, there are a number of staff associations representing employees in these banks. Most of these associations are affiliated to the Central Council of Bank Staff Associations.

When representatives of the Central Council and of the union finally made a joint request in 1956 to my Department for assistance in securing a meeting with the Committee of London Clearing Bankers to discuss the proposal for national machinery, the Committee pointed out that two staff associations had decided against the policy of joint conciliation machinery while a third staff association was not a member of the Central Council. The directors of these banks declined, therefore, to take part in any discussions on joint conciliation machinery.

My officers have recently had further talks with representatives of the union and the Central Council, from which it is clear that there has been no change in the circumstances which led the employers last year to refuse to enter into discussions with the union and the council. The talks have also revealed a fundamental difference as between the Central Council and the union in their conception of the purpose of national machinery.

Until a greater degree of unanimity has been developed amongst the staff organisations including the National Union of Bank Employees, there is little hope of the establishment of satisfactory national negotiating machinery.

Mr. Robens

Do I understand, then, that the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to take further action to try to secure from the London Clearing Bankers recognition of this organisation, which now includes half of the total number of employers in banks? Will he not consider inviting the bankers, the representatives of the staff associations' Central Council and the National Union of Bank Employees to a meeting under the chairmanship either of himself or of one of his officers to discuss this whole question?

Mr. Macleod

No; I do not think that that puts the matter fairly. After discussions with a number of hon. Members, including the right hon. Gentleman, 1 set on foot the inquiries to which I have referred. They have come to nothing, largely because there is no agreement on the staff side, and, equally, there is no agreement on negotiating machinery between the employers and the various associations. In this country we do not compel, and the Minister of Labour cannot compel, any employer to recognise any particular body or association. Until the staff side itself comes more closely together, I do not see any move from the present position.

Mr. Robens

While, as the right hon. Gentleman says, it is true that we have never had legislation to compel employers to recognise trade unions, is it not because employers throughout the years have generally been prepared voluntarily to recognise organisations of workers when their size is such as to justify recognition? Surely, here is a situation in which bankers are refusing completely to recognise a trade union. If every employer took the same view as the bankers, would we not be discussing legislation to compel recognition?

Mr. Macleod

The point is not that no association has been recognised but that an association has been recognised which does not happen to be convenient to the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] That is a very different proposition.

Mr. J. Stuart

In view of the limited time allotted to Questions, may I suggest that this is a matter which should be debated and not dealt with by question and answer?

Mr. J. Griffiths

Will the Minister bear in mind our experience of the last 20–25 years that when employers insist on recognising only a company union, which very often they have established and sustained, and refuse to recognise another union which the men have joined voluntarily, that is the way to industrial trouble, as we know in our own various industries? Will not the Minister, therefore, impress upon the bank employers that it is expected of them that they will recognise this union which men have joined voluntarily?

Mr. Macleod

I can think of a much quicker way to industrial trouble, and that would be for the Minister of Labour to lay down which unions or associations should be recognised.

Mr. Shinwell

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult his predecessor, Viscount Monkton of Brenchley, who is now about to become Chairman of the Midland Bank, so that he might take the initiative in this matter by causing the Midland Bank to recognise the union? Would that not be an excellent beginning to the solution of this problem?

Mr. Macleod

Speaking from memory, I think that the Midland Bank is one of the banks referred to in my Answer as not recognising the joint machinery, as a result of which the present position has come about.

Mr. Leather

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that the fundamental point at issue is not whether this is a good or bad union, or even whether staff associations in themselves are good or bad, but simply the fundamental right of a large group of workers to be represented as they want to be represented and not as their employers want them to be?

Mr. Macleod

I am not very far apart from that approach. It does not, however, touch the fundamental problem that I, as Minister of Labour, will not tell employers with whom they must negotiate.

Mr. Robens

We are not asking the right hon. Gentleman to tell the bankers anything. We are asking him to go to the bankers and consider consultations with the trade union and staff association so that an agreement can be reached. Why will the right hon. Gentleman not use his influence to speak to the banks?

Several Hon. Members rose

—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We shall never get on with Questions at this rate.