HC Deb 16 July 1957 vol 573 cc948-56

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

98. Lady GAMMANS

To ask the Minister of Housing and Local Government what further steps he is taking to see that all the forms mentioned at the end of the pamphlet, entitled "The Rent Act and You," are readily available on the bookstalls.

The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke)

I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, answer Question No. 98.

The Rent Act does not place on me a statutory obligation to make available forms prescribed under the Act. What the Act does require me to do is to prescribe what should be in the forms. This I did by Statutory Instrument No. 981 of 1957. I made this Instrument at the earliest possible time on 6th June, immediately after the Act received Royal Assent. Copies of the Instrument, setting out the contents of the forms, were in the Vote Office and on sale in Her Majesty's Stationery Office on the following morning, 7th June.

There is no copyright in the content of these forms. Anyone is at liberty to reproduce and distribute them.

There is only one form which must be served not later than 17th August. This is Form T, not Form G, as suggested in the House yesterday. It is the notice of tenants' improvements affecting gross or rateable value, and the number of people needing to serve this notice will be small.

All the forms are being printed by law stationers and other printers, who make their own arrangements for distribution through the usual trade channels.

So far as printing is concerned, I have no reason to doubt that supplies will be adequate to meet all demands. Information reached me last week that distribution all over the country was going too slowly, and at once I took various measures to improve this.

At my request, the Stationers' Association and the Booksellers' Association has taken steps to urge its members to have the forms on sale and to display notices to that effect. Some of the very large retailers have arranged to have a number of the forms on sale not only in their bookshops, but also on railway bookstalls. The Stationery Office is now selling the forms at their retail bookshops, and Forms A and G, which are those likely to be most in demand, will be available in most towns at Citizens' Advice Bureaux.

Lady Gammans

I thank the Minister very much indeed for his very full statement about these forms. I am sure that all those who have been anxious about the matter will be very pleased.

Mr. Mitchison

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is still very real difficulty in getting the forms? May I suggest to him that the price is excessive, that the forms ought to have been available at the Stationery Office immediately, and that the best plan would have been to distribute them free of cost through council or post offices?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware, too, that, though he has no formal statutory responsibility, it is his administrative responsibility to make the Act work if he sponsored it, as he did, and that the shortage of the forms at present is leading to people making and using their own forms in what they think is the correct style but which are, in fact, incorrect and invalid, and that this will simply lead to trouble later? Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do anything by way of free distribution through council or post offices?

Mr. Brooke

I want to shoulder my full responsibility in this matter. I pointed out to the House that there is no statutory obligation on me. However, I took action, in fact, several days before the matter was raised in the House. I am sorry I was not here yesterday, but no notice whatsoever was given to me.

There is no monopoly in the production of these forms. From the time that the regulations were published, anyone was at liberty to produce and distribute them. With regard to what the hon. and learned Gentleman has just said, that some of the amateur productions may be invalid, I would point out to him that the regulations refer to The forms contained in the…Schedule to these regulations, or forms substantially to the same effect… I have followed the practice which, I think, has been universal under all Governments, that whereas the Stationery Office prints the regulations and shows what forms are prescribed, it is left to printers of all kinds or private people who wish to do so to produce the law forms. What has gone wrong on this occasion, I consider, is that there has been an underestimate of the rate at which demand—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—not an underestimate of the demand, but an underestimate of the rate at which the demand would build up even though there are a good many weeks before any of these forms need be sent in. I think I have given the House a comprehensive account of the actual steps that I have taken to improve the situation as rapidly as possible.

Mr. Mitchison

With regard to the invalidity of the forms, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his regulations require the notes to be appended to the forms and that the meaner or more ignorant landlords—not always only those—are omitting the notes which are for the benefit of tenants, and, consequently, are invalidating the forms?

Mr. Brooke

It is not for the hon. and learned Gentleman or for me to judge in advance what is valid or invalid. What I am pointing out is that the regulations for which I am responsible refer to The forms contained in the…Schedule to these regulations, or formś substantially to the same effect…

Mr. Lewis

Is the Minister aware that as recently as last weekend I went to six of the principal booksellers in the country but was unable to get the form, and that as recently as yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) telephoned six stationers all of whom said that they had not got the form and that, if they could get it, it would not only cost 6d. but that there would be an additional 25 per cent. Purchase Tax? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it disgusting— [Laughter.]—this is no laughing matter—that the Government should make old-age pensioners travel all round London to get a form for which they have to pay 6d. and then 25 per cent. Purchase Tax in addition? Will he have the form produced free of charge and circulated to local authorities, Citizens' Advice Bureaux and Members of Parliament, and, if need be, get the national newspapers to publish it, so that people will be able to obtain the form easily and readily from these various sources?

Mr. Brooke

I think that the action which I have already taken will very quickly secure that the forms will be available practically everywhere. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] With regard to them method of production of the form, I have followed the practice which has been followed by all previous Governments of all colours. I have explained to the House that anybody who wishes to reproduce one of the forms is at liberty to do so. There is no copyright whatever.

Dame Irene Ward

Would it not be a good idea to have the forms available in post offices? However well the distribution is carried out through the Stationery Office, is it not likely to be a rather complicated procedure for people who are not particularly used to filling in forms? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that I think it would be helpful to the public if the forms could be available in post offices, where they are likely to have a very much wider distribution than in other places?

Mr. Brooke

I think that I have shown that I am anxious to be as helpful as possible. This is not a matter of filling in forms, but of obtaining the forms, and I am somewhat reluctant to add to the considerable burden of work which post offices already have to carry.

Mr. Shinwell

Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the allegation made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) that not only does the form cost 6d., which appears to be excessive and must be an excessive price for many people affected, but that, in addition, there is a Purchase Tax? Surely that is something quite unusual. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that Purchase Tax is not charged on the form?

Mr. Brooke

Purchase Tax has always been chargeable on all law forms that have been produced under all Governments, under all Acts since Purchase Tax was invented, but there is no monopoly whatever in the production of these forms. Anyone can have one of these forms typed or duplicated.

Mr. H. A. Price

Would it not be a good idea to get the Stationery Office to produce some of these forms? I am quite sure that they could then be sold for less than half the 6d. which is being charged for the Solicitors' Law Stationery form?

Mr. Brooke

As I say, I have followed precedent. What has gone wrong here has been nothing to do with the production of the forms, but with their distribution.

Miss Bacon

Could the right hon. Gentleman say why the forms are costing as much as 6d., even without Purchase Tax? Is he aware that this morning the Labour Party Publications Department, because of the shortage of these forms, decided to go ahead and print a quantity, that they will be ready in two days' time and the cost in bulk supply will be under Id., including Purchase Tax?

Hon. Members

Resign.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Hon. Members should have a sense of proportion.

Mr. Brooke

I am very glad if political parties or any other organisations help to make these forms available, but I should have thought that the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) would realise that in the retail price the major factor is not the cost of production but the cost of distribution.

Mr. Blenkinsop

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency hundreds of tenants have received quite false notices, as far as I can see, duplicated by landlords, because of the lack of forms no doubt, which include none of the essential relevant matters that are on the forms? I have a copy in my possession now. Is he aware that tenants, by lack of knowledge, may be involved in paying rent increases quite wrongly on the basis of this sort of nonsense that has been issued? Will not the right hon. Gentleman accept full responsibility for this fact, which makes complete nonsense of any talk about any defence of the tenant?

Mr. Brooke

I cannot accept that for one moment. I have published these regulations and I have set out in the regulations the contents of the forms. I have indicated that these forms, … or forms substantially to the same effect… will be valid. It is not for the hon. Member or for me to judge in advance whether the particular form which he holds in his hand is valid.

Mr. Gaitskell

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will reconsider his attitude in this matter? He will be aware that there is a general feeling in the House that these forms ought to be made available through post or council offices, if possible, free. Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the whole matter again with a view to providing them in that manner, if necessary at the small cost at which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South-East (Miss Bacon) said the Labour Party is prepared to supply them?

Mr. Brooke

In my original statement, I endeavoured to inform the House that I was extremely anxious to do everything in my power to facilitate and expedite the distribution. It is perfectly possible, as far as I am aware, for local authorities to handle these forms, though I doubt whether they would have power to incur net expenditure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The powers of local authorities in these matters are limited and a local authority must be expected to cover its costs; but subject to that I am prepared to do all in my power to expedite the distribution of these forms. I would say again that this is not a problem of production, but one of distribution.

Mr. Jay

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, after speaking to his office last weekend, I went, on its advice, to most of the bookshops in Charing Cross Road and most of the railway bookstalls in Central London and found that not one of them had a single copy of this form? How could ordinary constituents possibly obtain one in those circumstances? Will the right hon. Gentleman take seriously the suggestion made by his hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. H. A. Price)?

Mr. Brooke

It was certainly possible last week to obtain copies of the form much nearer than Charing Cross Road. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where."] In Victoria Street. But it was entirely because of the difficulty which I found was being experienced last week that I took this comprehensive action, which I think the House will find will very quickly remedy all the trouble.

Mr. H. Morrison

Surely the Minister must have known that the Rent Act was a highly controversial Act and would affect large numbers of people. Did the right hon. Gentleman underestimate the consequences of the Act in the number of places that would be involved? Did he take no steps to see that the administration of the Act and the supply of forms was adequate? Ought he not now, in view of the revelations made, to see that the forms are available to the post offices and local authorities? Surely the right hon. Gentleman can supply them to local authorities without involving a charge on local rates. If the Minister is in such a muddle with his forms and the administration is clearly out of gear, ought he not to bring in a Bill either to repeal or to postpone the Act?

Mr. Brooke

No, Sir. I am in no muddle, and I underestimated nothing. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] What I think was underrated was the speed at which the demand for these forms would build up, bearing in mind that none of them need actually to be returned for a good many weeks ahead. I am giving the House an undertaking that these forms will be available to everybody. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] Everywhere. They will be available long before the date at which anybody can possibly lose anything by not having sent in a form.

Mr. Isaacs

Did the right hon. Gentleman also underestimate the speed at which the landlords would ask for more rent?

Mr. Brooke

As I said, I underestimated nothing at all.

Several Hon. Membersrose—

Mr. Speaker

I really think that we have had a good run on this Question.

Mr. M. Stewart

The Minister has said that local authorities would not be allowed to incur a net charge in distributing these forms free. If that is so, can he not himself make available forms free to local authorities, so that they can distribute them free to the public without incurring a charge?

Mr. Brooke

I cannot say in advance what a local authority is empowered to spend money on; only the courts can say that. What I am saying is that I can see no objection to a local authority handling these forms, and distributing them, provided that it covers its costs.

Mr. Gaitskell

Will the Minister answer this simple question? Why should he not arrange for these forms to be printed by the Stationery Office, as suggested by one of his hon. Friends, and distributed free to local authorities, so that tenants can get them easily?

Mr. Brooke

Because I think that the steps I have taken already will make any printing by the Stationery Office quite unnecessary.

Hon. Members

Resign.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Mr. Gibson.

Mr. Gibson

Is the Minister aware that in spite of the action which he says he took last week, only this morning I have been informed from a number of places in London that people cannot get Form G? Does not that prove the justice of the complaint that there is very great difficulty in the tenants getting these forms? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the country will regard him as the Minister who pushed this Bill through, was responsible for the Act, and, having got it through, has not made proper arrangements for a speedy supply of the necessary forms?

Mr. Brooke

I am quite sure that within a very short time, thanks to the steps which I have taken, supplies of these forms will be available to anybody who wants them.

Hon. Members

Resign.

Mr. Speaker

Order.