HC Deb 15 July 1957 vol 573 cc765-70
Mr. Lewis

Mr. Speaker, with your permission and that of the House, I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, The failure of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to make readily available Form G under the 1957 Rent Act at the principal booksellers and stationers, and thereby failing in his statutory obligation to make these forms available as laid down under the Act, and thus failing to protect the tenants of the country. In support, Sir, may I point out to you that the Minister himself has issued a booklet as a guide to tenants, and in it he states that these forms can be readily obtainable at principal booksellers and stationers. I have tried, and many of my hon. Friends have tried throughout the country, to get these forms. Even though such people as old-age pensioners have to pay not only 6d. for the form, but an additional 25 per cent. Purchase Tax, they cannot get these forms except from a few progressive local borough councils, such as my own in West Ham. Therefore, I would urge upon you and the House that this is a definite matter of public importance, that it is urgent, and that it is important to tenants throughout the country.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, The failure of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to make readily available Form G under the 1957 Rent Act at the principal booksellers and stationers, and thereby failing in his statutory obligation to make these forms available as laid down under the Act, and thus failing to protect the tenants of the country. I have heard what the hon. Member has said for the first time. It seems to be a complaint about a failure to issue a form. I cannot recall any occasion when the failure to issue a form was regarded as a matter of urgent public importance. Although there is no doubt matter here for proper administrative criticism of the Minister, it does not fall within the Standing Order.

Mr. Lewis

Further to that point, Sir, can you therefore advise me and the people of the country what remedy they have? [Laughter.] It is not a laughing matter. Many of my hon. Friends know of old-age pensioners on very limited means who cannot obtain these forms, even though it is laid down by Act of Parliament that the Minister should make them available. What remedy have we?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member does not need my advice as to how he can raise a matter properly in Parliament. He could certainly ask the Minister a Question, or initiate a discussion on the matter in some other way. It is for himself to find a proper opportunity.

Mr. Paget

In asking leave to move this Motion, my hon. Friend did not tell you, Sir, what this form is. This form is a necessary procedure for the tenant if he is to save his home. The absence of this form, and its immediate availability, puts each home in danger. With great respect, surely that is a matter of public importance. The Statute puts on the Minister a duty to produce this form. His failure to do so endangers the homes of millions of people.

Mr. Speaker

I have never had any doubt as to its public importance. Of course, I naturally accept what is told roe by the hon. Member as true, and on that basis I have no trouble about the public importance aspect. However, all matters of public importance are not within Standing Order No. 9 from the point of view of urgency. Accepting what is told me, it seems to me that this is an administrative error which should be altered in another way, not under the Standing Order.

Mr. S. Silverman

May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to an element of urgency in the matter which has not yet been covered by my hon. Friends? Unless I am mistaken, the Statute lays down that the particulars required by the form shall be served, on the form, upon the landlord on or before 17th August next. On 17th August the House will not be sitting. There is a statutory obligation upon the Minister to make the form available, and there is an immediate urgency because a great many people are involved and the statutory latest date is fairly soon and certainly only a short time after Parliament adjourns. Does not this supply the element of urgency added to the element of public importance which may have been lacking so far?

Mr. Speaker

I do not really think so. I think that there is plenty of time to get a matter of this sort put right. I have no doubt that what has been said today will have its effect. However, on what is before me at the moment, I could not find this within the Standing Order.

Mr. Gaitskell

On a point of order. This really is a matter of considerable urgency, Mr. Speaker. Many hon. Members who have been in their constituencies this weekend have learned with dismay and alarm that it is not possible for tenants to obtain these forms. We have no assurance whatever that the forms will be forthcoming within a reasonable time. Although it may be some days before 17th August, it takes time before the forms can be obtained, and the filling in of the form is not particularly easy. I submit that it is a very shocking thing that, after all the debates in this House and all the argument there has been, the Government have failed to provide forms in time for the tenants to fill them in. I submit, in support of the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis), that this is a matter of definite urgent public importance which warrants debate in the House.

Mr. Speaker

I had no notice whatsoever of this matter, of course, and I confess that I am not as well up in the intricacies of these matters as some hon-Members are, but on what is before me I certainly could not agree that it is within the Standing Order. Also, I have not the advantage of any information about it from the other side. I ought to hear both sides.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler)

As you have suggested. Mr. Speaker, that you would like to hear something from both sides of the House about this matter, perhaps I might point out that this is the first that I or my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government have heard of the difficulty which has been experienced by the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis) and the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Lewis

On a point of order—

Mr. Speaker

We are already discussing a point of order. Let us finish one at a time. Mr. Butler.

Mr. Butlerrose—

Mr. Lewis

On a point of order. When I spoke—

Mr. Speaker

We are still on a point of order. The hon. Member must wait until we have disposed of the present point of order before he raises another one.

Mr. Lewis

But the Minister has said something that is untrue, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

We have had a speech on the point of order from the Opposition. Now we are to have a speech on the point of order from the Leader of the House.

Mr. Butler

Perhaps I may be allowed to continue my speech on the point of order.

Notice was not given to you, Mr. Speaker, to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, or to the Government of the point which the hon. Member for West Ham, North saw fit to raise. I submit that if the hon. Member wishes to get satisfaction on points like this one, it would be very much more satisfactory if he would give notice to the Minister responsible that he desires to raise them, and then we on our side should be able to give an answer worthy of the point which is put to the House.

Mr. Speaker

I should just like to say—I really think that the House will be with me on this—that it is not reasonable, on what I have heard today, to find that this matter comes within the Standing Order. These are very important things, and they create precedents. I have only one set of facts on the subject. Without prejudice to the issue of the urgency of the matter, I will look into it between now and tomorrow and find out what I can do about it and see whether the matter can be disposed of soon, because I realise that to some hon. Members—indeed, to all of us—it is an important matter. However, on what I have before me I must adhere to my decision.

Mr. Lewis

I thank you for your remarks, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. H. Morrison

I am sure the House is much obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, for the undertaking which you have given. May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will also arrange for a statement to be made in the House on behalf of the Government in reply to the allegation which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Lewis), because it needs explaining? A statement ought to be made.

Mr. Butler

Certainly, Sir. The first thing we shall do is to bring the point to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I cannot give any assurance that he will make a statement, but, naturally, he will be available to answer at the earliest possible notice any question about the matter which is put to him. Then perhaps the hon. Member for West Ham, North will receive the latest information, which the Government will he only too glad to give him.

Mr. Gaitskell

May I assure the right hon. Gentleman that there really is a very grave shortage of forms? It is not something which has happened just in one constituency. I should have thought that hon. Members opposite, if they were interested in this matter, would have had the same experience in their constituencies. Therefore, I support the plea made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) that the Minister should tomorrow—when, Mr. Speaker, as you have been kind enough to say, you will make a further statement—come to the House and give us the statement that we want.

Mr. Butler

The Leader of the Opposition has always informed us through the usual channels when an incident like this has been likely to occur. I am not absolutely clear that he was aware of this question. If he or his right hon. Friends were aware of it, I am sure that they would have let us know. Now that we are aware of it, we will take the necessary action to give the House the information it desires.

Mr. Gaitskell

Perhaps I might inform the right hon. Gentleman that I was in my constituency this weekend and received many complaints on this point from my constituents.

Several Hon. Membersrose—

Mr. Speaker

I have given my decision on the point of order, and I ought not to be argued with about it. I have given the matter most careful consideration. I think that what I have suggested is the safe course to take. I do not want to lead the House astray.