HC Deb 08 July 1957 vol 573 cc3-8
3. Mr. Parkin

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he is taking to collect and co-ordinate information about the change in costs of the special needs and habits of old people with a view to drawing up a weighted cost-of-living index as a guide to the real value of old-age pensions.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service has collected information about the spending habits of old people in the course of an inquiry into household expenditure. I understand that he will shortly publish the results, but that he does not propose to draw up a special cost-of-living index relating to old people.

Mr. Parkin

Will the Minister appreciate that this was a special recommendation of the Phillips Committee, and that one need not necessarily limit oneself to investigations carried out by the Minister of Labour—as, indeed, it may be fair to comment that certain increases announced last week to the Minister and myself were based on a different kind of Select Committee's investigation of special need? Will he do his best, as Minister, to make it clear to the old folks that he accepts the need for a special cost-of-living index for old people, and will he do his best to speed up the publication of the information?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Before forming as firm a view as that, the hon. Gentleman might well await the publication of the information which my right hon. Friend will release before very long. As regards the question of having two separate indices, it must be borne in mind that both the Cost-of-Living Advisory Committee and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in 1951 rejected the idea of two indices at the same time.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Since then we have had the Phillips Committee, which was set up by the previous Conservative Government, and, after very careful consideration, it came to the conclusion that there ought to be a special index. If the Minister is now to reject that recommendation, may we take it that he will set out fully the reasons why he rejects the unanimous Report which the Phillips Committee presented to the Government?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

That is a question for my right hon. Friend. I think the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that my right hon. Friend always answers questions very fully.

4. Mrs. L. Jeger

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce legislation to raise the £2 10s. earnings limit for retirement pensioners who have children at school.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

No, Sir. The earnings limit is a necessary means of maintaining the principle that pensions during the first five years after age of eligibility are conditional upon retirement, and the existence of dependent children, in respect of whom additions are made to the pension, does not affect this. The hon. Lady will be aware that the general earnings limit was raised last summer not only to the 50s. per week referred to in the Question but with a reduction of only 6d. in the shilling in respect of further earnings of £1 a week above this figure.

Mrs. Jeger

Will not the Minister look at the matter again? Surely there are very few retirement pensioners who have dependent children, and the very small extra sum which they receive makes it impossible for them to manage, and provides a very special reason for their continuing at work?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Lady will recall from an answer that I gave last week that the increases in the provision for dependent children which have been made in recent years are rather greater in proportion than other increases in the National Insurance system.

5. Mr. Hunter

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state, at the latest convenient date, the number of old-age pensioners in the country in receipt of retirement pensions who have applied for National Assistance.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have no later figure than that which I gave to the hon. Member on 6th May, to which I would refer him.

Mr. Hunter

Is the Minister aware that a report appeared in a national newspaper on Sunday to the effect that the Government intend to raise the old-age pension? If the report is correct, I assure the Minister that it will be welcomed by the country and by hon. Members. If he can make a statement before the Summer Recess, it will be very much appreciated.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am afraid that the result of the hon. Gentleman's newspaper reading does not arise on this Question.

6. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many old-age pensioners were applying for National Assistance in Salford at the latest convenient date.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the County Borough of Salford is part of a substantially larger area served by two of the Board's offices, and that in that area on 25th June, 1957, 6,970 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to persons receiving retirement pensions and 801 to persons receiving non-contributory old age pensions. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

Mr. Allaun

Since so many pensioners are trying to maintain appearances by existing on bread, margarine, tea and potatoes, as the recent Salford survey reports, will not the Minister do the human thing and increase the pension to £3? Does he appreciate that old people cannot wait?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The survey to which the hon. Member refers is interesting but far from comprehensive in its analysis of the situation. On the main issue, I have nothing to add to the statements which I have made from the Dispatch Box on this matter.

Mr. J. Griffiths

As the Salford survey is a very interesting and, I believe, very important document, will the Minister make copies available to hon. Members in the Library?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I will, of course, consider that, but as it is not my survey I shall have to inquire as to its availability and the position of those to whom it really belongs.

Mrs. Castle

Is the Minister aware that even old-age pensioners who draw National Assistance are living at an absolute penury level because of the inadequacy of the National Assistance scales, and, therefore, the basic pension is obviously even more inadequate? Is it not undesirable that hon. Members should go away for their summer holidays before we do something to rectify the discrepancy between our standard of living and that of the old-age pensioners?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Lady raises a number of issues, but I must remind her that the real value, in terms of purchasing power, of the pension today is better than it was between 1948 and 1955.

7. Mr. Parkin

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will appoint a working party to devise means to stabilise to old-age pensioners the prices of minor necessities and amenities, such as bus fares and the cost of posting a letter, since even a small increase constitutes a disproportionately high burden upon the aged.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I doubt whether the appointment of such a body would be of value, and in any event I have no responsibility for the control of particular prices.

Mr. Parkin

Is there no way of getting the Minister to treat the matter seriously and with some human feeling? Will he try to bear in mind the things which are so important to old people? For instance, the cost of a single-stage bus fare may make a difference in the food which they can buy, whereas ordinary people could very well walk the distance. In such a case, or in the case of the postage for a letter, an increase of a halfpenny is a 20 per cent. increase. It is too much. Will the Minister try to find ways of stabilising the cost of some of these items for old people?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

If the hon. Gentleman will study the answer, he will see that the matters to which he has referred do not come within my responsibility and I do not answer for them at the Dispatch Box. He has complained about bus fares. He should address his question on that subject to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation.

Mr. Parkin

In view of the rather unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies to this Question and previous Questions, I give notice that I will raise the matter again at the earliest opportunity. If the Minister would like time to make a statement—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member has given notice that he will raise the subject later. That concludes this business now.

Mr. Parkin

Would it not be convenient to the Minister, Mr. Speaker, if I suggested to him that if it helped him I could put down an Amendment to the Ministerial Salaries Bill which is to be taken in Committee on Thursday?

Mr. Speaker

That has nothing to do with it.

11. Mr. Rankin

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state, to the nearest convenient date, the number of old-age pensioners in Scotland and the number of these who are on National Assistance.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In March, 1957, there were approximately 430,000 retirement pensioners in Scotland, of whom just over 70,000 were also receiving weekly National Assistance grants. In addition, there were some 25,000 non-contributory old-age pensioners, of whom 14,000 were receiving supplementary assistance. Some of the grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner.

Mr. Rankin

Does the Minister realise that his Answer means to a large section of old people in Scotland that he is now paying such a small sum as pension that in order to keep them living he has to pay a supplementation through another of his Departments so that they can go on drawing their old-age pension? Does he not think that is an absurd situation? Will he now say whether the report that he is to put an end to this by raising pensions all round is correct?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not think the intention of Parliament in passing the National Assistance Act that aid should be given in cases of need is absurd. On the contrary, it is a very valuable social service. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in Scotland the percentage being supplemented is appreciably below that for England and Wales.

Sir T. Moore

In view of the obviously political character of this Question, can my right hon. Friend give us the figures for 1950–51?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Certainly, if my hon. Friend will be good enough to put down a Question.

Mr. Bence

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Burgh of Milngavie—

Mr. Nabarro

Who?

Mr. Bence

—the Burgh of Milngavie —has issued a statement to old-age pensioners informing them that they can apply to the National Assistance Board for payment of increased rents which have been imposed? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that those old-age pensioners will be given the extra National Assistance to pay increased rents resulting from a differential rents scheme?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I have answered one or two Questions, as the hon. Member may be aware, on the general attitude of the National Assistance Board towards rent increases. I prefer not to add to that in respect of a particular case of which, in answer to the first part of the question, I was not aware up to now. If the hon. Member so wishes, I will certainly look into that case.