§ 34. Mr. G. R. Straussasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will make a statement about the co-operation he is getting and expects from the staff of British Railways in carrying out the modernisation plan.
§ Mr. WatkinsonI do not think that I need add anything to what I said on the Third Reading of the Transport (Railway Finances) Bill, when I referred to the importance of continuing co-operation between management and men if the modernisation plan is to succeed, and to the very great support which the trade unions have given to the British Railways Productivity Council.
§ Mr. StraussWill the Minister remember that on that occasion he said that unless there was full co-operation by the staff in working this modernisation plan the railways might have to be sold up and disposed of? Is he aware that that threat has caused considerable resentment in many quarters of the staff? As the threat is nonsense in any case, would he like to withdraw it?
§ Mr. WatkinsonNo. On 20th November the British Transport Joint Consultative Council, which the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, said that the trade unions, and, indeed, the whole of the staff, pledged the maximum support to see that the affairs of British Transport. 432 and particularly British Railways, are put on a sound footing. I wish them well in that task, but it is my duty as Minister to point out that it has to be carried out if they are to justify the very large sums of public money which are being provided for modernisation.
§ Mr. StraussNobody questions that. What I am asking the Minister is whether he will qualify or completely withdraw the ridiculous threat that if a certain standard of co-operation is not forthcoming —and I am sure it will be—then our railway system will have to be, in his own words, sold up and disposed of. Surely that is a ridiculous thing to say. I suggest that he should withdraw it.
§ Mr. WatkinsonThe right hon. Gentleman is putting a quite improper gloss on what I said. Perhaps I may repeat what I said. It was in answer to an interjection by the hon. Member for The Hartlepools (Mr. D. Jones). Of course the railways need the co-operation and support—and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman; I think it will be forthcoming—of all who work for them, if they are to succeed. If they did not get that co-operation—and that is what the hon. Member said—then the whole thing would go bankrupt, and, indeed, would have to be disposed of in some way or another. I do not withdraw that statement at all.
§ Mr. PeytonDoes my right hon. Friend realise that many of us, on this side of the House particularly, support him entirely in his attempt to confront this vital industry with the necessity of facing the facts as they are? Does he not also agree that there is a great failure to exercise efficient and intelligent management? Many loyal servants of the railways, who have served them for years, leave the railways with a feeling that their services have not been adequately recognised.
§ Mr. WatkinsonI think this is a job for everybody on the railways, and nobody wants them to succeed more than I do. I do not think the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. G. R. Strauss) disagrees with that. I only hope that they will be allowed to press on and to get on with the job.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that for a quarter of a century before the railways were 433 nationalised they conspicuously failed to pay their way and that if the right hon. Gentleman's cure for that had been followed we should have no transport system in this country at all?