MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (Hansard, 1 August 1957)

§ 45. Mr. Shinwell
asked the Prime Minister whether his recent statement that the defence services will be co-ordinated includes supervision by the Minister of Defence over the activities of the Ministry of Supply.

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan)
The present position is as I stated it on 24th January, that is to say that, subject as necessary to consultation with the Cabinet and the Defence Committee and with the Treasury on matters of finance, the Minister of Defence has authority to give decisions on all matters of policy affecting the size, shape, organisation and disposition of the Armed Forces, and their equipment and supply (including defence research and development).

§ Mr. Shinwell
Does the right hon. Gentleman regard the present organisation as satisfactory, in view of the fact that the Minister of Defence has no power to intervene in matters of production and research which are within the exclusive prerogative of the Minister of Supply? Is he aware that, because I regard this position as just a half-way house at the very best, I intend to direct his attention to the matter again after the Recess?

§ The Prime Minister
Yes, I know the right hon. Gentleman's interest in this matter and his great experience in it. I think that he will agree that we have made a good deal of progress in many rather difficult questions, both as to manpower and general organisation. We are proceeding now with inquiries as to how we can obtain a more effective coordination of the command structure and in the central administrative organisation; but we have to proceed by stages. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's interest, and I will do my best to answer any questions later on about the progress we are able to make.

§ Mr. Robens
Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to the statement made in the House last night by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), and will he say whether the responsibility there lies with the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Supply? What action does he propose to take about those allegations?

§ The Prime Minister
I have read the debate, and I have asked for some inquiries to be made. I do not think that this really arises out of the particular Question, which relates to co-ordination under the Ministry of Defence which the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell)thinks ought to be taken on a further stage of authority.

§ Mr. Gaitskell
What my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens)was asking, however, was whether this particular matter, to which my hon. Friend for Leeds, East referred yesterday, was exclusively the responsibility of the Minister of Supply. Will the Prime Minister, when his inquiries are complete, arrange for a statement to be made to the House?

§ The Prime Minister
If a Question is put down, I will do my best to answer it. I was only pointing out that it did not arise out of this one; otherwise, I should have prepared myself to reply.

§ Mr. Robens
Does the Prime Minister not appreciate that it is a matter of responsibility which we are trying to establish, and that this does arise out of the Question put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington? I asked whether the Minister of Supply was entirely responsible for this, or whether the Minister of Defence had overriding supervision.

§ The Prime Minister
But on this particular question, as it was raised, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that I should be wise to consider the reply before I make it, and, therefore, I shall be glad to see it on the Order Paper.

§ Major Legge-Bourke
Reverting to my right hon. Friend's answer to the right hon. Member for Easington, may I ask him whether, in the consideration he is now giving to the possibility of better co-ordination, he will not rule out the possibility of merging both the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Supply?

§ The Prime Minister
All these are very important questions, and I think that, earlier in the Session, we have discussed them in some detail. I have made a number of statements about them. I ask the House to recognise that these are very large issues. What we thought right to do was to take the most immediate 1516 decisions first and proceed, as I think we can, by stages to reach what I hope will be the right solution.

§ Mr. Strachey
Will the Prime Minister look into the internal organisation of the Ministry of Defence itself, with a view particularly to strengthening its secretariat so that the Minister of Defence will have independent advice, independent of the other Ministries, and have a secretariat which can prevent the sort of terrible scandal—I use the word advisedly—which has been found in the Ministry of Supply to which my right hon. Friends have just referred?

§ The Prime Minister
I could not, of course, accept the statement that the right hon. Gentleman has thought fit to make in his supplementary question. Concerning the organisation of the Ministry of Defence, the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that I am bound by the statutory position introduced some years ago. We attempted to go as far as possible by directive to get the maximum coordination that we could, but I have always been frank with the House that if we wanted to go further it would become necessary at some time to present legislation to the House.