§ Mr. Chapman(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make about the safety and evacuation of the 1,500 British civilians in Egypt.
§ The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd)Up to midday yesterday, when the Egyptian Government broke off diplomatic relations and communications with Her Majesty's Embassy failed, no cases of ill-treatment of British subjects in Cairo had been reported.
President Nasser gave Her Majesty's Ambassador an oral assurance on 30th October that the Egyptian Government would protect British civilian lives and property. When diplomatic relations were broken off, Her Majesty's Ambassador asked again for such an assurance and also for facilities for those British subjects who wished to depart.
Owing to the interruption of communications with Cairo, it is not yet known how many British subjects have been able to leave Egypt.
§ Mr. ChapmanDoes the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise the incredible danger in which he is putting the lives of British civilians in Egypt by his folly in the last few days? Can he give a categoric assurance that airports and ports through which these people are trying to escape will not be bombed by British planes? Will he get in touch with neutral countries in an effort to provide ships in the ports of Egypt whereby they might escape?
§ Mr. LloydThree warnings were issued, two on dates in August and one in September, urging British subjects who 1765 had no essential functions to perform to leave Egypt. A considerable number of British subjects, especially women and children, left in response to those warnings. Military operations will be confined to military targets. As to the question of further measures by neutral countries to assist in evacuation, I have no statement to make on that today.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Watkinson.
§ Mr. WarbeyOn a point of order. This is a matter of very grave importance, on which I suggest that further supplementary questions might be permitted.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am afraid not. We have had quite a lot of questions about it already.
§ Mr. P. Noel-BakerFurther to that point of order. May I support my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey)? The Government's action, according to the statements which the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have made, is designed to safeguard the lives of British citizens in the Canal. There is none in the Canal, but there are some in Cairo and elsewhere. If we blockade the ports and bomb the airports how are they to escape?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am bound by the Private Notice Question, which was to ask the Foreign Secretary about the safety and evacuation of British civilians. An Answer has been given to that Question. What is now being attempted by some hon. Members is to extend this into a repetition of yesterday's debate. I hope that that will not take place.
§ Mr. WarbeyFurther to that point of order. I respectfully submit, Mr. Speaker, that you did not call any of the hon. Members who were standing and you were, therefore, unable to determine whether our supplementary questions would be within the relevant Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman).
An announncement has been made from Allied Forces Headquarters this morning telling all civilians to stay away from Cairo and Alexandria radio stations—not airports. This is a clear warning that bombing raids are to be made on 1766 the Cairo and Alexandria radio stations. If British civilians are killed in these bombing raids, are we not entitled to ask the Government what action they are taking in a war which they say they are undertaking to protect the lives of British citizens?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat question at the moment is hypothetical. There will be other opportunities for discussing these matters.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House must proceed with the business.
§ Mr. JayOn a point of order. Are there not deep feelings and deep anxieties about this matter in the country and, that being so, is it not merely the right but the duty of the House of Commons to ask questions about this issue and have the Foreign Secretary to answer? May I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, to allow at least some of us in this Chamber to discharge this first and primary duty?
§ Mr. SpeakerI thought the Private Notice Question a reasonable one. It was because I thought there might be anxiety about it that I allowed it as a Private Notice Question. I have no difference of opinion about that. I should not have allowed it to be asked if I had not thought that it was of sufficient urgency. I have allowed it and an Answer has been given and there has been a supplementary question from the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman), who asked the Private Notice Question.
But I must be allowed some discretion as to when we should proceed with the Orders of the Day and the business of the day which has been appointed, and the time has come now. It is now already nearly 20 minutes to 12 o'clock and it is time for us to get on. There are a number of hon. Members on both sides of the House who are anxious to speak on the Question which is to be before the House.
§ Mr. RobensFurther to that point of order. There is nothing more important that the House can discuss than the matter that is being raised. Surely it is right that my hon. Friends and myself should be enabled to ask questions about the security of British nationals in Egypt, because that was one of the purposes for 1767 which the British Government said that they had started this war against Egypt. I beg you, Mr. Speaker, to permit questions to be continued so that we may satisfy ourselves about the actions which the Government are taking to protect the lives of British nationals in Egypt.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf this were a Motion it would be a different matter, but this is a Private Notice Question and an Answer has been given, and a supplementary question by the hon. Member for Northfield, who asked that Question, has been answered. It is not my duty to postpone indefinitely the business of the House which hon. Members are anxious to discuss, and I really must insist that we get on with the business of the day.
§ Mr. ChapmanWith great respect, Mr. Speaker, do you realise that hundreds, if not thousands, of relatives of these people have, up to now, received no news whatsoever from the British Foreign Office, which, apparently, is incapable of telling them what is happening to their relatives and what is being done for them?
One of the suggestions I made in my supplementary question was that we should approach neutral countries to try to get these people away. The Foreign Secretary has just brushed that aside. He had not even thought about it. Surely, when something like that is suggested, we should have an opportunity of putting a supplementary question to press the Foreign Secretary to consider it and to reply across the Floor of the House that he will do his best to explore that possible means of getting these people away from Egypt. Many of us have in mind what happened in Egypt to people like this, and supplementary questions on a matter of this kind should not be cut short.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am sorry if the hon. Member does not agree with my actions, but I have a responsibility to the House and to hon. Members who want to discuss today's business. I allowed the hon. Member's Private Notice Question because I thought an answer ought to be given on the matter. It has been given but, beyond that, I could not permit this to expand into a general discussion. Everything that can be said has been 1768 said. We ought to get on with our business. Further questions can be put when the House sits again and we shall hear what is going on.
§ Mr. SpeakerThere are four right hon. Members who wish to address the House. Which am I to choose? Mr. Philip Noel-Baker.
§ Mr. P. Noel-BakerWith great respect, Sir, and further to the point of order, is it not a fact that the first duty of the Foreign Secretary, in circumstances of exceptional gravity, is to take measures to ensure the safety of British citizens in the places affected? Is it not a new fact that an announcement has been made that the radio stations are to be bombed? The Foreign Secretary has not told us—is it not his duty to tell us?—what measures are being taken, whether by aircraft or by other means, to bring these British citizens away?
§ Mr. SpeakerA number of additional points have been put. If the Foreign Secretary has anything he can add, I will allow him to do so.
§ Mr. F. Noel-BakerAnswer. Answer.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order. I must ask the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) to restrain himself. He is not giving the Minister a chance. If there is anything the right hon. and learned Member has to add, I shall be glad to listen to it.
§ Mr. StokesMr. Speaker, may I address this question to the Foreign Secretary? The circumstances are quite exceptional because a new position has arisen. Could he not at least tell the House and the country what is the relative position between the wireless stations of Cairo and Alexandria and the residential quarters? Presumably, if it has been decided to bomb them, the Government know where they are, and the country would like to know what are the prospects of civilians being annihilated in the process.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order. The question has been put and the Minister has said that he can add nothing today. I really think that further questions should be postponed until he has something to say. I must insist. Mr. Watkinson.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order.
§ Mr. RobensOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have ruled on the point of order. If it is a new one, I will listen to it.
§ Mr. RobensThe point of order that I wish to raise is this, Sir. When a country is at war it is usual that the country should secure the services of a neutral country to look after its interests in the particular country with which it is at war. I should like to ask you how is it possible for us to discover from the Government which neutral country is acting for Great Britain in Egypt at this moment?
§ Mr. LloydIf I may answer that question, Sir, may I say that the Swiss Government have agreed to protect British interests in Egypt.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order. Mr. Watkinson.
§ Mr. Watkinsonrose—
§ Mr. F. Noel-BakerOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerI hope it is a point of order.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerThis is an entirely new point of order, Mr. Speaker. A few moments ago you passed a stricture on me when you asked me to restrain myself. In the circumstances, and in view of the intolerable, as we think, attitude of the Government at a time when British and other lives are being lost, at a time when the prestige and good name of this country has reached depths we never hoped to see, we find it very difficult indeed to restrain our feelings in this House. Nevertheless, Sir, I offer you my apology.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am grateful to the hon. Member. Believe me, I thoroughly understand the stress under which hon. Members are placed. My desire is, as far 1770 as I can, to be reasonable and patient so far as these virtues are granted to me. But I ask the House to make sure that, however strong the feeling, the traditions of this House are maintained and its business transacted properly. Mr. Watkinson.
§ Mr. Watkinsonrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order. I hope now that we shall have no frivolous points of order. I have ruled on this matter as best I can. I hope I have the support of the House in this matter.
§ Mr. ParkinOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder, order. Dr. King.
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat is the point of order?
§ Dr. KingWith all respect to you, Sir, this is a new point of order. May I say, also, that the whole House has tremendous admiration for the way in which you are carrying on in a very difficult position.
The point of order is this : is it not a fact that the whole purpose of the business of the day, which it would be your duty, in normal circumstances, to protect against all kinds of interruption, is a device arranged by the usual channels so that we can use Parliament as a means of discussing from time to time the most serious thing compared with which the business of the day is nothing? In those circumstances, would it not be better if we had the opportunity to put further questions?
§ Mr. SpeakerI take another view. I think that however important the events which are happening in the world—and no one realises their importance more than I do—there is a great deal to be said for Parliament pursuing its course. If it has put down this business for today, which is important business, Parliament ought to go on with it and not give up its time entirely to issues which we have already discussed at considerable length. Mr. Watkinson.
§ Mr. WarbeyOn a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerI have ruled on the point of order.
§ Mr. WarbeyThis is a new point of order.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not sure that it is. I hope that hon. Members will not use points of order for an improper purpose. I am always grateful when an hon. Member draws my attention to a lapse or a mistake I have made but, on the other hand, I dislike very much the use of points of order as a peg for further debate.
§ Mr. WarbeyI want to submit to you, Sir, that there is a general view in this House, certainly on this side of the House, that the Orders of the Day are really comparatively trivial—[HON. MEMBERS : "No."]—and irrelevant in view of the major and grave issues with which this country) is confronted, and which we should be able to consider without the least delay. Therefore, Sir, may I ask you whether there is any way in which the Orders of the Day can be taken formally, immediately, so that we can pass to the Adjournment of the House?
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that that would be very unfair to other hon. Members who desire to speak to the Motion which is to be moved by the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation.