HC Deb 01 November 1956 vol 558 cc1603-8

The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:

31. DAME IRENE WARD,—To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the basis and machinery on which the new charges for prescriptions will be reimbursed to those who cannot meet the charges without hardship and who, though outside the National Assistance scales, have a personal budget which on a small fixed income cannot meet further charges without hardship.

52. Mr. J. HYND,—To ask the Minister of Health what directions have been issued regarding the assessment of entitlement to the refund of National Health prescription charges to persons not in receipt of National Assistance.

Mr. Speaker

Dame Irene Ward. Question No. 31.

Mr. J. Hynd

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. I put down Question No. 52 to the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week, and it was transferred to the Minister of Health. I find now that Question No. 31 has the same purport as the Question which I originally put down for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. May I be told why the Chancellor can answer one and not the other?

The Minister of Health (Mr. R. H. Turton)

I have been asked to reply—

Dame Irene Ward

May I ask my Question, please?

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Minister of Health appears to be about to answer the hon. Lady's Question, if she will let him.

Dame Irene Ward

On a point of order. I was just about to ask it. Question No. 31, Sir.

Mr. Turton

I have been asked to reply to Question No. 31, and I will, with permission, answer it and Question No. 52 together.

Repayment will be made on the same basis as at present to any person who can show that his resources are insufficient by National Assistance standards to meet the charge. The machinery for claiming, and making, repayment will be on similar lines to that which is already well established and has proved satisfactory, but I am reviewing it in consultation with the National Assistance Board and other bodies concerned in order to see if it can be improved at any point.

Dame Irene Ward

While thanking my right hon. Friend for the assurance—[HON. MEMBERS: "What assurance has he given?"] While thanking my right hon. Friend for his assurance—[Interruption.]. Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. As you called me to ask a supplementary question, am I not entitled to put it? Otherwise, it will take me a couple of hours to finish.

Mr. Speaker

I do not understand what all the noise is about. Dame Irene Ward.

Dame Irene Ward

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his assurance that he will re-examine the position, will he bear in mind that unless he does find some way of meeting the position of those living on small fixed incomes who are outside the National Assistance scale, I will certainly not favour the new arrangements which he intends to introduce? Will he also bear in mind that this is another imposition on those living on small fixed incomes, which I bitterly resent?

Mr. Turton

I have noted the hon. Lady's questions.

Dr. Summerskill

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement which he has just made cannot be reconciled with the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer a day or two ago when he made a statement on prescription charges? In answer to a question of mine, he said specifically that those people in the country who were unable to afford these new charges could have them refunded. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are hundreds of thousands outside the comparative few who qualify for National Assistance who will not be able to have this sum refunded, and will he therefore tell us how he can reconcile what he has said with the Chancellor's statement?

Mr. Turton

I have before me my right hon. Friend's statement. What he said was that all persons in receipt of National Assistance and all old-age pensioners and others who cannot meet the charges without hardship are entitled to be reimbursed. That is exactly what I have said today. He said on that occasion also, in answer to the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), that the present reimbursement arrangements will continue, and I think that at the moment they are satisfactory."—[OFFFCFAL REPORT, 25th October, 1956; Vol. 558, c. 834–5.] That is exactly the substance of my Answer today.

Dr. Summerskill

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will repeat his statement. Did he not say specifically that those who will be reimbursed are those who are in the category who will qualify for National Assistance, which is entirely different from the Chancellor's statement?

Mr. Turton

It is quite clear; there will be two categories, as now—those who are already on National Assistance and those for whom hardship is created which brings them on to the National Assistance standard; and at the present time that is working well. Last year, there were 9 million applications altogether in respect of prescription charges. Out of those, 30,000 were from persons not in receipt of National Assistance and in 95 per cent. of those cases the claim was refunded.

Mr. Hynd

Will the Minister explain what exactly is meant by this? Is he aware that hon. Members have been regularly informed by National Assistance officers up to now that only those persons entitled to National Assistance will be given the refund of their prescription charge? Does the Minister mean that the only extension which he is announcing is that people who are entitled to National Assistance but are not getting it will get the refund, and if so, what precisely does he mean, because they will surely then get National Assistance as well?

Mr. Turton

What I had hoped to make clear was that the machinery at present operating will be continued. There is one test of hardship that is at present being operated by the National Assistance Board, and as far as all my information goes that system is working very satisfactorily at the present time.

Mr. E. Johnson

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, whatever may be happening in Sheffield, in Manchester, at any rate, officials of the National Assistance Board have told me that they will look very carefully at applications from any who feel that they are meeting undue hardship from these charges, including visits to them in their own homes, if necessary?

Mr. Turton

I am very glad to hear that. I have every confidence in the National Assistance Board, the officers of which exercise their discretion in this matter very wisely.

Mr. H. Wilson

Quite apart from the obviously unsatisfactory methods which the Minister has in mind for dealing with hardship cases, has not the Minister now received enough evidence, as we all have, in the last week, of the utter unfairness of the new proposals, and will he not, therefore, deal with all these questions, and the wider problems, by dropping the Chancellor's proposal?

Mr. Turton

That is a matter which will be debated on another occasion.

54. Mr. Rippon

asked the Minister of Health whether he will provide for those on National Assistance and others for whom payment for drugs and appliances would constitute hardship, to have their prescriptions written on a special coloured form which would exempt them from payment and thus would enable them to avoid the inconvenient process of seeking reimbursement.

Mr. Turton

No, Sir. I have carefully considered my hon. Friend's suggestion, but regret that it would be administratively impracticable.

Mr. Rippon

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while there is widespread agreement that people who can pay more for these prescriptions should pay more, there is also general concern that those people to whom my Question refers—pensioners, people on National Assistance, people who require multiple prescriptions—should be dealt with with the utmost sympathy, and should not be put to the inconvenience of having to seek reimbursement if it can possibly be avoided?

Mr. Turton

The difficulty about my hon. Friend's suggestion is that it would mean asking doctors and chemists to exercise a test of means which they could not possibly carry out.

Dr. Summerskill

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the answer of the Chancellor to my supplementary question the other day, when he said that all those who are unable to afford this amount could have the sum refunded, still cannot be reconciled with his latest statement?

Mr. Turton

I do not think there was anything about coloured forms in the questions last Thursday. Nor was the right hon. Lady quoting accurately the reply of my right hon. Friend, which I quoted to her earlier today, quoting it from HANSARD.

Dr. Summerskill

This question by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Rippon) is only incidental to the principle for which he asks, that these people should have their money refunded.

Mr. Speaker

Mrs. Braddock. [Interruption.]

Mrs. Braddock

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. You called me to ask a supplementary question, but amid the noise greeting the Prime Minister's arrival the Minister of Health has left his place, and I have now no opportunity of asking my supplementary question. Will you bring him back again?

As the Minister has now returned, may I ask him whether a person has to pay for the whole of the prescription before he or she can make any application at all to the Assistance Board, as it is absolutely impossible at the moment for an aged person, in receipt of pension only, to pay 4s. or 5s. before making an application to the Assistance Board for refund?

Mr. Turton

That is the very kind of point of machinery which I am at present looking at and discussing with the National Assistance Board.