HC Deb 15 May 1956 vol 552 cc1831-42

3.34 p.m.

Mr. Harold Davies (Leek)

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to limit the size of. School classes.s The purpose of the Bill which I seek to introduce is to limit the size of school classes in Britain by January, 1958, so that thereafter no class of school children in Britain shall consist of more than 35 children. This is not a permissive measure this provision is to be obligatory. The figure 35 is not Utopian, but I have selected it because, as the present Leader of the House will appreciate, it is five above the permitted number in a secondary modern school class and five below the permitted number in a primary school class.

The Select Committee on Estimates in its Eighth Report in the Session 1952–53 said that we have schools that are unsuitable for children and that they suffered from gross overcrowding. That Report said: At every point we were confronted by overcrowding, lack of schools, heavy transport costs, shortage of teachers and often rapidly deteriorating and even dangerous school buildings While the permitted maximum number of children in a class is 40 in a primary school class and 30 in a secondary school class, figures today show that nearly 47 per cent. of our school classes exceed those numbers. Both sides of the House are in agreement, I am sure, about the need to reduce those figures. I am sure that the Leader of the House, who was one of the architects of the Education Act, 1944, would himself like to see these overcrowded classes reduced in size. I sincerely believe that if this nation made a real effort we could, by January, 1958, reduce these classes.

In my own constituency, there are school classes of 60 and 57 and 70 each, taught by one teacher. They are found in schools in areas of new building. These classes are in makeshift classrooms, hired halls, chapel and church halls, and miners' welfare institutes, and other types of building are being pressed into service.

I wish I could have the attention of some hon. Members who are making rather a noise. This is an important subject. If they do not want to listen, I should be grateful if they would be good enough to leave the Chamber. There is an hon. Gentleman opposite who has been making interruptions all the afternoon and he is continuing to do so while I am speaking.

Mr. Dudley Williams (Exeter)

rose—

Mr. Davies

No, I shall not give way.

The same Select Committee reported that the time lag between the completion of houses and school buildings was a subject of major concern. I appeal to right hon. Members on both sides of the House to consider seriously the object of the Bill I seek to introduce, because I believe that we could between us do a good job for our school children by 1958. The Select Committee's Report said: The building of schools lags seriously behind the building of houses in most places and this aggravates overcrowding, compels local authorities to hire temporary school accommodation and commits them to exceptional heavy expenditure on transport, beyond that allowed by statute. A report from the Ministry of Education, in 1952, commented on the growing school population. I shall not weary the House with a mass of statistics, many of which are already well known, but I must submit a few essential figures. The school population in 1947 was 4.8 million, by 1951 it was up to 5.6 million, and by 1954 it was 6.3 million. It is estimated that the number will rise in 1958 to 6.6 million and that then it will gradually drop to about 5.9 million. We shall have past the peak after 1958, so, by a concerted effort by hon. Members of this House, we could do a real job of work on behalf of our school children by that year.

I am encouraged to think we could reduce the size of the classes by that time by an Answer given by the Minister of Education to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) the other day, an Answer which delighted me. The right hon Gentleman said: In January, 1955, the numbers of pupils per full-time teacher in Staffordshire were 33.4 for juniors and 22–9 for seniors. The corresponding figures for England and Wales as a whole were 31.5 and 21.0."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 3rd May, 1956; Vol. 552, c. 571.] Consequently, hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House will say that, mathematically, it is within the bounds of possibility, though I know that mathematics and reality are not always the same thing. There are physical obstacles.

I deprecate the high figures in Staffordshire, but the point is made that we have a sufficient number of teachers if we could administratively do the job. I do not want to speak politically. We should not make the child the shuttlecock of political parties, but I must say that we had not recovered, by the time war broke out, from the cut which was imposed in 1931. I see that one of my hon. Friends is laughing, but he knows nothing about the case. I repeat that we had not recovered from the 1931 school programme and, in addition, 5,000 schools were damaged by enemy action during the war. According to the Education Report of 1952, 47 per cent. of our classes were too large.

TheManchester Guardianreported on 18th July, 1953, that … the Select Committee were so concerned about conditions in schools that they made proposals to secure improvements. The Minister demolishes those proposals, but offers nothing new in their place. There is nothing in the document which suggests that anything will be done to deal with the fundamental facts exposed by the Select Committee. I am asking the House to do something to deal with those fundamental facts.

An hon. Member who was speaking for teachers from the benches opposite pointed out the other day that in the past few years the size of classes had increased by 33 per cent. in the primary schools, but we were spending only 2s. 5d. per head of the population per week on primary schools and 11s. 8d. per week on armaments. I believe that the raw materials and the finance could be found by some slight cut in the armaments programme to provide for this primary need. A total of 71,000 out of 128,000 classes in Britain are at present too large.

The tragedy is illustrated by an Answer given in the House on 31st October, 1955. to the effect that whereas 28.9 per cent. of classes were over-sized in 1954, nearly 30 per cent. were over-sized by 1955. The House must do something about this if Britain is to maintain her moral lead and to keep her place in the scientific world. We can never do that by not giving the child milk today and stuffing it with cream ten years' hence. If we are to meet the problem of scientific education the House must seriously face this issue today.

By means of this Bill I am trying to make a real effort to face the difficulties. I beg the Minister of Education to realise that all the talk of extravagance in education is completely untrue. We were spending £ 100 million on education in 1938. According to the Minister's figures, we are now spending £ 3152 million. The school population has gone up by nearly 3 million, yet we are spending barely three times as much as we were spending in 1938, since when there has been a considerable drop in the value of the £.

The hon. and gallant Member for Poole (Captain Pilkington) recently asked the Minister of Education what, in terms of December, 1952, was the cost of a primary place. The Minister said that it was £ 262 in 1949 and £ 129 in 1954. The hon. and gallant Member then asked the Minister to ensure that that very satisfactory economy would be mentioned by my hon. and right hon. Friends in their constituencies. I am mentioning it now. If there has been a cut of that nature, who and what have suffered? The building programme has suffered, the school equipment has suffered and the children who are the backbone of the country have suffered. The House should not tolerate that situation.

I appeal to the House to do something immediately. Teacher recruitment can help meet the situation. On 26th April, the Minister showed in an Answer that teacher recruiting was improving. The Minister is pleased at that, as we all are, but he said that he could not expand the training colleges. I hope that he will be able to do so. One of my hon. Friends asked the other day how many of the schools in the school building programme had been postponed. We were told that 330 out of 941 schools had not been started up to last March. The House should be ashamed of that record, because teachers and children have to suffer in consequence.

I beg the House to urge upon the Minister to press forward with this school building programme. According to a circular which the Minister has sent out, the right hon. Gentleman is expecting something of a miracle from the education authorities in assuming that at the present cost per place new buildings can be erected. If the House permits me to introduce my Bill I hope that all of us, on both sides, can make a job of providing the necessary school accommodation.

Choleric critics of our youth today talk about juvenile delinquency. Some want more beatings and some more Beatitudes. Neither beating nor prayer can solve the problem of slum schools and overcrowded schools. We opened our proceedings in the House today with a prayer. I believe that a child has a divine right to his curiosity and sense of wonder. How can that child satisfy his curiosity and sense of wonder in the kind of schools which we are tolerating in Britain today? My prayer is, "Grant us today the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change those we can, and the wisdom to know the difference." We can change the present situation in our schools and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will help us to do so.

3.48 p.m.

Mr. Angus Maude (Ealing, South)

In rising to oppose the application for leave to introduce the Bill I do not, of course, doubt for a moment the excellence of the aim which the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) has in mind. It is quite clear that he wants the best system of education and smaller classes, and so do we all. The point is whether the means which he seeks to persuade the House to adopt is the right one or the one most likely to secure his end.

This is clearly not an issue between the two parties, and I think that hon. and right hon. Members opposite have good precedents on their side if they will join with me and some of my hon. Friends in opposing this application. The hon. Member for Leek said that he would not worry the House with statistics, and neither will I. Everyone knows that statistics are extraordinarily difficult to interpret and make relevant to this proposal, since 35 is not a maximum number for any class of school. The figures are 30 and 40. The average number of children now in primary schools is just about 35 per class, which the hon. Member for Leek proposes, while the average-size class in secondary schools is well below 35.

It is, of course, true that there is still a large number of classes which are over the permitted maximum and over the 35 in all classes of schools, particularly where there are new housing estates. That is certainly true. But, of course, the reason why there are large numbers of over-size classes is not because of a slack Minister, a slack House of Commons or a large number of slack local education authorities who are letting people get away with dereliction of duty, but simply because it has proved physically impossible to cope with the enormous number of children resulting from the increased birthrates of the 1940s.

This is not a problem which exists only in this country. I have recently come back from two months spent in looking at schools in the United States, where they have a far worse problem. There, they have the money and the resources to produce an enormous number of school buildings, but it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to find the number of teachers required. This is the problem that we have to face.

If we grant the hon. Member leave to introduce his Bill, and the Bill ultimately goes through, can we, in fact, provide, without undesirable secondary effects, the number of extra teachers and buildings required to make these maxima effective? We have to realise that in face of the enormous number of competing demands, particularly for young women teachers nowadays, if we greatly increase the number of teachers we are likely to have an immediate shortage of nurses, medical auxiliaries and staff in all the other professions on which the Welfare State now depends.

We have to realise that we are now getting more teachers than we have ever had before, and that more teachers are going into the teacher training colleges than ever before. That is a tremendous achievement. Can we get more? I believe that in time we may be able to get more, but I am fairly certain that the effect on other professions would be very considerable now if we tried to increase the number very much.

There are, of course, other implications. There is the building question, about which I want to say a word or two in a minute. At this stage, I would like to see whether the machinery which the hon. Gentleman wants to provide for ensuring that there shall be no oversize classes is the best. Here I would like to say that his idea is not a new one. It is one which was canvassed actively on both sides of the House during the Committee stage of the Education Act, 1944. This will be found in HANSARD of 15th February, 1944, when an Amendment was moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead) to write into the Bill a maximum figure for the size of classes in different kinds of schools.

There was a long and careful debate on this subject, and in the course of it the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who was then Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, replying on behalf of the Coalition Government, said quite clearly that in his view writing the permitted size of classes into regulations which could be altered according to change in circumstances by the Minister was a far better method than writing a maximum firmly into the Bill, not merely because they could be more readily adjusted to change in circumstances but, as the right hon. Gentleman for South Shields said, "If you put it into a Statute you are only too likely to find that a slack or economically minded education authority will say, 'Oh, we are allowed by Statute to have 35 children in each class and we can, therefore, allow those classes which have already less than 35 to increase up to that figure '." There is psychologically, of course, something in that.

In conclusion, I want to impress upon the House two things. First, has the House, which I have no doubt feels considerable sympathy with the hon. Member, really considered what would be the implication on the building programme and on the provision of teachers by trying to do this? We have to realise that at present there is still a very large number of small village schools in this country, single class schools, schools with one or two classes, with one or two teachers, some of which go over the figure of 40 or over the figure of 35. What would happen if we tried rigidly to impose on the schools that maxima?

We would probably find that there were three or four children over the maxima in one particular year or one generation of children. In three years' time it might be five under the maxima and in another three years it might again be five over. If we expect that village school to build another classroom or provide another teacher, or if we have to provide transport for those children to go away from that village to a school in a local town just because we have three or five children over the permitted maxima, the position becomes impossible. We hope and believe that the way things are going at the moment the size of classes in primary schools will continually decline over the next few years.

We shall have a very difficult time in secondary schools, but the one thing that we must not do is to divert building resources and teacher resources away from the secondary schools for the next ten years by unnecessarily tinkering with and making more rigid the structure of the primary schools, where the position will not get too bad. The hon. Member may say, "If we put a maximum in a Statute that will provide a target at which local education authorities will have to aim." The powers are there already. Under Grant Regulation No. 10, the Minister has power by Order to see that those local authorities which go over the maximum are called to account.

If the hon. Member and his hon. Friend think that the Minister is not being tough enough with the local education authorities—I myself think that he is—I suggest that the best thing they can do is to ask him Questions or raise the matter on the Adjournment rather than to take up the time of the House with legislation that cannot be effective.

Mr. Harold Davies

A disgusting suggestion.

Mr. Maude

I would ask hon. Members not only on this side of the House but hon. and right hon. Members opposite, who may have to administer this very difficult piece of legislation, unless they are quite confident that they will never be again in office, to join with us in opposing the Bill.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12:—>

The House divided: Ayes 154, Noes 181.

Division No. 182.] AYES [3.58 p.m.
Ainsley, J. W. Hamilton, W. W. Parker, J.
Albu, A. H. Hannan, W. Parkin, B. T.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hayman, F. H. Plummer, Sir Leslie
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Awbery, S. S. Herbison, Miss M. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Bacon, Miss Alice Hobson, C. R. Proctor, W. T.
Balfour, A. Holmes, Horace Pryde, D. J.
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Holt, A. F. Rankin, John
Benson, G. Houghton, Douglas Redhead, E. C.
Beswick, F. Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) Reeves, J.
Blackburn, F. Hubbard, T. F. Reid, William
Boardman, H. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) Hunter, A. E. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Hynd, H. (Accrington) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Bowles, F. G. Irving, S. (Dartford) Ross, William
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Brockway, A. F. Janner, B. Short, E. W.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield) Silverman, Juilus (Aston)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Burke, W. A. Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Callaghan, L. J. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Kenyon, C. Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Champion, A. J. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Chetwynd, G. R. King, Dr. H. M. Snow, J. W.
Clunie, J. Lawson, G. M. Sparks, J. A.
Coldrick, W. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Steele, T.
Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Logan, D. G. Summerskill, R. Hon. E.
Crossman, R. H. S. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) MacColl, J. E. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) McInnes, J. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Deer, G. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Delargy, H. J. Mahon, Simon Timmons, J.
Dodds, N. N. Mann, Mrs. Jean Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Viant, S. P.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Mellish, R. J. Wade, D. W.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Messer, Sir F. Warbey, W. N.
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mikardo, Ian Watkins, T. E.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Mitchison, G. R. West, D. G.
Fernyhough, E. Monslow, W. Wheeldon, W. E.
Finch, H.J. Mort, D. L. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Moyle, A. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Gibson, C. W. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Oliver, G. H. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Orbach, M. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Grey, C. F. Oswald, T. Yates, V. (Ladywood)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Owen, W. J. Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) Zilliacus, K.
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Grimond, J. Palmer, A. M. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Mr. Shurman and Mr. Harold Davies.
NOES
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. Carr, Robert Godber, J. B.
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Channon, H. Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Chichester-Clark, R. Gower, H. R.
Arbuthnot, John Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Graham, Sir Fergus
Armstrong, C. W. Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Grant, W. (Woodside)
Ashton, H. Corfield, Capt. F. V. Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)
Baldwin, A. E. Crouch, R. F. Green, A.
Balniel, Lord Deedes, W. F. Gresham Cooke, R.
Barlow, Sir John Digby, Simon Wingfield Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)
Barter, John Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. MCA. Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Drayson, G. B. Hall, John (Wycombe)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)
Biggs-Davison, J. A. Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Harris, Reader (Heston)
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Duthie, W. S. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)
Black, C. W. Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd)
Boothby, Sir Robert Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)
Bossom, Sir A. C. Errington, Sir Eric Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Erroll, F. J. Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.
Boyle, Sir Edward Farey-Jones, F. W. Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Braine, B. R. Fisher, Nigel Hinchingbrooke, Viscount
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Forrest, George Holland-Martin, C. J.
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Fort, R. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.
Bryan, P. Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence
Butcher, Sir Herbert Freeth, D. K. Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)
Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden) Garner-Evans, E. H. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)
Campbell, Sir David George, J. C. (Pollok) Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)
Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. Neave, Alrey Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Hulbert, Sir Norman Nicholls, Harmar Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark(E'b'gh, W.) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun) Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Hyde, Montgomery Oakshott, H. D. Stuart, R. Hon. James (Moray)
Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H. O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Studholme, H, G.
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Teeling, W.
Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Page, R. G. Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green) Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Keegan, D. Partridge, E. Thompson, Lt.-Cdr.R.(Croydon, S.)
Kerr, H. W. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Thornton-Kemsley, G. N.
Lagden, G. W. Pilkington, Capt. R. A. Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Leavey, J. A. Pitt, Miss E. M. Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Leburn, W. G. Powell, J. Enoch Touche, Sir Gordon
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Turner, H. F. L.
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Profumo, J. D. Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Raikes, Sir Victor Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Lindsay, Martin (Solihull) Ramsden, J. E. Vickers, Miss J. H.
Linstead, Sir H. N. Rawlinson, Peter Vosper, D. F.
Lloyd-George, Maj. Rt. Hon. G. Redmayne, M. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Rees-Davies, W. R. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Remnant, Hon. P. Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
McAdden, S. J. Renton, D. L. M. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) Whitelaw, W.S.I.(Penrith & Border)
Maclay, Rt. Hon. John Roper, Sir Harold Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Russell, R. S. Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Maddan, Martin Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) Sharples, R. C. Wood, Hon. R.
Mathew, R. Shepherd, William Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Mawby, R. L. Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L, C. Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Moore, Sir Thomas Spearman, A. C. M. Mr. Maude and
Nabarro, G. D. N. Speir, R. M. Mr. Beresford Craddock.
Nairn, D. L. S. Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)