HC Deb 10 May 1956 vol 552 cc1537-40

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).—[Queen's Recommendation signified.]

[Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to extend the power of the Minister of Fuel and Power to make advances to the National Coal Board for capital purposes, it is expedient to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund, the raising in any manner authorised under the National Loans Act, 1939, or the payment into the Exchequer, of any increases in the sums authorised by the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, 1946, to be so issued, raised or paid which are attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session replacing the previous restrictions on the power of the Minister of Fuel and Power to make advances to the National Coal Board for capital purposes by a provision that the aggregate amount outstanding by way of principal in respect of such advances—

  1. (a) shall not at any time exceed six hundred and fifty million pounds; and
  2. (b) shall not at any time in any financial year exceed by more than seventy-five million pounds (or such greater sum as the said Minister may by order specify for that year) the highest aggregate amount so outstanding at any time during the immediately preceding financial year.—[Mr. Aubrey Jones.]

10.7 p.m.

Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South-East)

In view of the vote which has just been taken. on which, of course, I will not comment, I rise to ask one or two questions about this Money Resolution. We are in the very odd situation of considering the Resolution when the Government, apparently, can carry less than half their party with them into the Lobby on a matter which involves the expenditure of several hundred millions of pounds.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. R. A. Butler)

If the hon. Member intends to make a speech, would he explain why the Socialist Party is not in favour of supporting borrowing to the coal mines?

Mr. Callaghan

If the Lord Privy Seal had been here during the debate—he has not been here for much of it—and not just come in during the last speech, he would have heard my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Neal), in winding up for the Opposition, and myself, when I opened for the Opposition, support the Coal Industry Bill. We said that we believed the Bill to be necessary. On the other hand, we do not believe that it is necessary to get the Government out of their troubles with their own supporters.

Mr. E. Partridge (Battersea, South)

Where are the supporters of the Opposition?

Mr. Callaghan

As far as we can see, there are fewer supporters of the Government present than there are of those who abstained or opposed the Bill. The Prime Minister cannot be very happy about the vote this evening. If the Prime Minister would like to hand over the seals of office, we will guarantee to carry the Bill through.

The Prime Minister (Sir Anthony Eden)

I was only comforted by the action of the hon. Members opposite.

Mr. Callaghan

I am sure that the Prime Minister would not have wanted us to vote against the Bill and have added our votes to those of his supporters who are against it. Of course, as we are in favour of it, we shall have to wait for another day, when the Prime Minister is replaced by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) as Prime Minister. We shall not now have an opportunity of seeing what the new Administration will look like.

We are waiting impatiently to see what will happen to this Money Resolution. Here is another opportunity for those who did not support the Government in granting this money to put their principles to the test. I do not know whether the right hon. Lady the Member for Manchester, Moss Side (Dame Florence Horsbrugh), was a nominal supporter—

Dame Florence Horsbrugh (Manchester, Moss Side)

If the hon. Member wants to know, I can assure him that I voted for the Government and that I looked round to see why he was not in the Lobby.

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Callaghan

I do not know why those who cheered that remark loudest should be those who opposed the Government in the Lobby. It is a very odd state of affairs when it is now the duty of the Opposition to rescue the Government from their troubles with their own supporters. We have never interpreted that as part of our duty.

We sympathise with the Prime Minister in the blow which he has had tonight and we hope he will survive it, because we have other blows in store for him. I want him to know that we believe it right to pass this Money Resolution. If, however, he is unable to carry his own party with him, I assure him that when we take over office we shall pass the same Money Resolution, and that he can be sure that the coal industry will not suffer.

Indeed, the coal industry will have far firmer friends on this side of the Committee than on the other side of the House [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"] We believe that it is essential that the Coal Board should have the money for which this Resolution asks and that it would be quite wrong to whittle it down in any way, as some hon. Members opposite wish to do, if we can believe the speeches which they have made. In those circumstances we shall certainly not wish to oppose the Money Resolution, if the Government can get their own supporters into the Lobby for it.

Mr. C. R. Hobson (Keighley)

I have read the Money Resolution very carefully and I want to ask some questions about it. It says that the advance of money under this Clause shall be made by issues out of the Consolidated Fund, and I think we ought to have an assurance as to the rate of interest which has been taken into account in the compilation of this sum for the Money Resolution. In view of the repeated changes in interest rates, may we have an assurance that the sum will be adequate? It is not good enough for the Government to say simply that advances are to be made out of the Consolidated Fund unless we have an assurance on what the rate of interest will be. The policy of the Government is almost seasonally to increase the rate of interest. The information for which I have asked has not been given, and we ought to have an assurance on the point.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. David Renton)

The rate of interest which will be payable will be the rate of interest which is usually payable in like circumstances to those which will prevail when this Bill has been passed into effect.

Mr. Hobson

The hon. Member holds a very important position. He did not reply to the debate on the Coal Industry Bill, but he is Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power and he should not simply give a legalistic explanation like that. If he does not know what the rate of interest on the Consolidated Fund is likely to be, perhaps he will obtain the information from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Mr. Angus Maude (Ealing, South)

Having been directly challenged by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), I merely wish to say, on behalf of those of my hon. Friends who, most unwillingly, voted against the Government, that although we shall clearly find it necessary to put down some Amendments in Committee, we do not in the least find it necessary to vote against the Money Resolution, because we think it desirable that there should be the widest possible measure of freedom to debate the question in Committee. As for the question of who voted and who did not, I can only say that I regard the performance of hon. Members opposite as being beneath contempt.

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.