§ 6. Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will publish a White Paper on the talks he had with the British Transport Commission which led it to withdraw its applications to the Transport Tribunal for increased fares and to limit the increase in freight charges to 5 per cent.
§ Mr. WatkinsonNo, Sir. The position was fully explained in the statement which I made on 19th March.
§ Mr. DaviesIs it not a fact that the British Transport Commission had already applied to the Transport Tribunal for an increase in fares and charges in fulfilment of its statutory obligations when the Minister intervened. As a result of his intervention, has not the Commission withdrawn its application, or is not proceeding with it? Therefore, was the Minister able to produce a very persuasive argument to cause the Transport Commission to change its mind, and should not Parliament be told what it was?
§ Mr. WatkinsonThe hon. Member has slightly confused the position. Of course, the British Transport Commission does not need my approval or authorisation for any decisions it takes on passenger fares. Therefore, those decisions were entirely its own and I accept its very helpful co-operation. I am answering a Question about freight charges later.
§ Mr. DaviesWould the Minister state the position about passenger fares? Will fares remain at their present level or is the Commission raising them? The House was informed by the Minister last week that the Commission would make a statement, but I am not aware of a statement having been made.
§ Mr. WatkinsonThe Commission has made its position plain. It is that, apart from certain adjustments in sub-standard fares with which it is going ahead, it has decided to defer any general fare increase until the end of a six months' period.
§ 7. Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the percentage rise of fares charged by British Railways compared with the immediate 2125 pre-war period; and the percentage increase in freight charges during the same period.
§ Mr. WatkinsonCompared with the pre-war period, the percentage rise in fares charged on British Railways is approximately 100 per cent., and the percentage increase in the authorised level of freight charges is approximately 175 per cent.
§ Mr. DaviesDo not these figures indicate that fares and charges have gone up far less than have retail and wholesale prices? Does not that indicate that the increased costs have to some extent been absorbed by the Transport Commission through greater efficiency and economy?
§ Mr. WatkinsonNo, that is not the point at all. I do not want to mislead the House. I have answered the hon. Member's Question; but, to put it another way, freight charges have gone up roughly three times since before the war, which brings them to about the level of other costs. I agree that passenger fares have not gone up in the same ratio. They have roughly doubled.
§ 10. Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation by what authority the Government requested the British Transport Commission to refrain from applying to the Transport Tribunal for certain increases in freight charges and fares in pursuance of its statutory obligation to pay its way; why the Government did not proceed by general direction; and how far this change of policy is being applied in the cases of other nationalised industries.
§ Mr. WatkinsonThe British Transport Commission's application in respect of increases in freight charges is being dealt with in accordance with the procedure laid down in Section 82 of the Transport Act, 1947. As to fares, as I explained on 19th March, the decision of the Commission to defer those increases in fares for which it had already applied to the Transport Tribunal was taken by it as a measure of co-operation in the policy I then outlined, and accordingly there is no need for a direction. I can assure the hon. Member that the Commission's statutory duty to pay its way taking one year with another has not been overlooked either by the Government or by the Commission. The circumstances of nationalised industries vary considerably 2126 and therefore the policy adopted in the special circumstances of the Commission is not necessarily applicable to other nationalised industries.
§ Mr. DaviesIf the necessity for the British Transport Commission to fulfil its statutory obligations by paying its way has not been overlooked, what has the Minister in view to enable it to meet its obligations? What is the Minister proposing to do to assist the Transport Commission to meet the very large deficit which the Minister has admitted? Whatever the position regarding the Transport Tribunal is, is it not a fact that the Minister has by-passed the Transport Tribunal, because he has persuaded the Transport Commission to refrain from raising its freight charges more than 5 per cent., without waiting for the Transport Tribunal to give its decision? Has that decision been given? Has he received the decision from the Transport Tribunal?
§ Mr. WatkinsonThose are rather a lot of questions to answer. I have not received the decision of the Transport Tribunal. The broad general answer is that I recently explained in the House that the six months' period was adopted in order that we should not traverse the one-year period and that the Commission should have to look at this again before a year was up. The other general answer is that it is my view and that of Her Majesty's Government that we must make a concerted effort to try to stop the continual passing of this sort of charges to the general public.
§ Mr. D. JonesIn view of the fact that the British Transport Commission has now stated that it does not intend to use its power to raise passenger fares, would the right hon. Gentleman like to review his figure of £20 million for a 5 per cent. increase in freight charges? Is it not a fact that by the end of the year the Commission will have a deficit of more like £125 million than £100 million?
§ Mr. WatkinsonPerhaps the hon. Member will put down that Question.
§ 20. Mr. G. R. Straussasked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will give an assurance that the postponement at his request of the freight and fare increases which the British Transport Commission desired will not result in a steeper increase later.
§ Mr. WatkinsonI can give no assurance one way or the other as to the future at this stage. As I said in my statement on 19th March, the whole position must be reassessed in the light in the financial and operating prospects as they will exist in six months' time.
§ Mr. StraussDoes that mean in fact that, in view of the right hon. Gentleman's interference, it is quite possible that freights and fares may go up far more steeply than they might otherwise have done? If that is not his idea, surely he should have some practical policy to put before the House about how to deal with the growing deficit of the Transport Commission?
§ Mr. WatkinsonI am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman takes a poor view of the future of the Commission. I do not. I take the view that it is now at a stage where we may look for considerable development and improvements, and that is why I took the action which I did.
§ Mr. StraussWhy does the Minister suggest that only now may we look forward to improvements in this system? Is he not aware that there have already been economies of over £20 million brought about by the Commission, and that it is a continuing process? Does the Minister expect a sudden change in this process?
§ Mr. WatkinsonOf course it is a continuing process, and I am in no way suggesting that the Commission, and particularly its Chairman, has not worked very hard and efficiently in recent years. But, as in any process, one has to put in a lot of hard spadework before one begins to get results, and it is my judgment that the time has come when results may begin to flow.