HC Deb 26 July 1956 vol 557 cc768-76

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]

9.50 p.m.

Mr. Ron Ledger (Romford)

The matter which I wish to raise tonight is that of a grant to local authorities to provide refreshment of some kind for Civil Defence trainees. I appreciate that there is already a grant of 5s. per trainee per year for recreational purposes. I am not concerned with increasing that grant. I am concerned with a grant which would enable a local authority to provide cups of tea free of charge for trainees. Although the matter arose in my constituency, and all the correspondence on the subject is between the Romford Borough Council and the Home Office, there is bound to be some national interest in the outcome.

I have three main reasons for raising the matter. The first is that the Romford Borough Council is concerned in it and has a responsibility. The second is that I feel that a principle is involved in the matter. My third reason arises out of a paragraph in a letter dated 12th December, 1955, which I received from the Home Office. It was the unanimous decision of the Romford Borough Council that I should be asked to intervene with the Home Office. There is no division whatever on the subject within the local authority; it is no way a party issue.

The Romford Borough Council has enrolled and trained a greater number of Civil Defence trainees than any other sub-division in the eastern region. It has been exceptionally successful. No one will underestimate the value of the work, because Civil Defence will be in the front line in any future conflict, a tendency which was apparent during the last war.

A considerable amount of expense is involved in obtaining Civil Defence recruits. There is very unfair competition from the Special Constabulary and the Territorial Army. Special police receive an allowance for subsistence while on duty, which is about Is. 6d. per tour of duty, and Territorial Army recruits receive a bounty. A Civil Defence volunteer can obtain a subsistence allowance only if he is on duty for three hours or more, and then only if he lives at least five miles from the training centre; training periods are normally two hours only.

In its consideration of the matter, the Romford Borough Council has been guided to no small degree by a county council Civil Defence Circular, No. 18/1954, which makes the point that training conditions should be as comfortable as possible and that refreshments, if required, should be supplied at a reasonable cost. The question that faces me and the problem that faces the Council is who is to finance the supply of these refreshments if they are required. Moreover, who is to bear the loss if these refreshments were supplied and were not fully taken up. These are problems with which I am bound to concern myself in dealing with this matter.

I think that the Home Office is well aware of the fact that many of these trainees go straight from their work to their training instead of going home. Therefore, instead of getting a meal at a reasonable hour, 7.30 p.m. or 8.0 p.m., they do not get a meal until about 10.30 p.m. So it is reasonable to expect that they will get some sort of refreshment during this training. Normally, they do not want sandwiches, buns and cakes. What they want most, and what I think most British people like in times of stress, or when they are a bit on edge, or their nerves are overstrained, is a cup of tea. In my opinion, the way in which this cup of tea arrives is very important.

On this point, I come to the question of my personal feeling that a principle is involved, and coupled with it there is a paragraph in a letter which I received from the Home Office. I think that it was extremely unfair and ungracious to write a letter of this kind to me. The paragraph reads: We should have to go to ridiculous lengths to ensure that they"— the volunteers— were not out of pocket at all as a result of their joining the Civil Defence service, and I am sure that the majority of volunteers would not expect us to do so. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and I do not think that it is unreasonable to expect volunteers who are away from their homes for less than three hours to pay for any refreshments they want. One can say to a volunteer, "You can have a cup of tea if you pay for it", and he will continue to be a volunteer and to take the training, and, should a war come, he will respond far better than we might expect him to; but I think that we have a duty to encourage these volunteers in the belief that they really are doing an essential job. We should encourage them to believe that we think that they are making a sacrifice of time for the good of the community.

It is essential that we should do this, and we do not have to do it by trying to compete with the Special Constabulary or the Territorial Association by giving large sums of money or any other inducement. The way we can most effectively do this is to have a cup of tea available if they want it and not have to ask them, when they have had it, for their 2d. or 2½d., or whatever is costs.

There is another point which arises on this which may have escaped the attention of the Home Office. I am thinking of 5th and 6th May, when a big exercise was held in the Romford district. In Civil Defence exercises these days, military and naval forces are playing an increasing part. On this occasion, it was a joint exercise with the Regular forces. In this case, as indeed in any of these cases, where it is a Civil Defence exercise, the local Civil Defence acted as hosts to the Service personnel.

As there were no funds available to provide a cup of tea during the day, it so happened that the Civil Defence officer had to pay for one out of his own pocket. I think it is imposing too much on the good nature of the trainees and their officers to take it for granted that they will give the Service personnel the refreshment denied to themselves and meet the cost out of their own pockets. I think that the Home Office might well follow the example of that Civil Defence officer who obviously had to study the cost of this, but, nevertheless, did not hesitate—

It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]

Mr. Ledger

It would be a good idea if the Home Office followed the behaviour of the Civil Defence officer and decided that they would be good hosts and see that these funds are available.

There are problems. The Home Office made it clear to me that the question of finance is involved. But I suggest that 2d. a head at a training meeting would hardly increase the financial problems of the Government. Without knowing the figure I should imagine that the total would be lost in any miscalculation that the Government may make on expenditure in almost any other Department. I disagree that this matter would be difficult to control. The Civil Defence Committee of the Romford Borough Council has to make a return of attendance to the county council. Why should not that return be the basis for the grant of 2d. per head for these trainees?

The Home Office also argue, "Of course, when we have given this amount, they will want more money." But out of the 5s. per head per year already granted, a supply of cups and other crockery and kettles and teapots have been bought. They have all these things and what they want now is the Home Office to cover the cost of the cups of tea. I believe that the expenditure on this could be controlled. It is no argument to say that there would be no limit, because a grant is already made.

If we worked on the basis that something cannot be given because it is not known where the demand would end, we should not make a grant at all or give anything to anyone. I suppose that the Government meet such demands in other Departments and the amounts are greater than they can afford. I believe that in this case it is a genuine demand for just 2d. par head per trainee for each training session. There is no intention to ask later on for the money for sandwiches, or cakes, or a three-course meal.

It has been made quite clear to me that these people feel that the most important thing is that the officers and the local authority should have some way which they can show to the trainees that their services are appreciated. Here is an opportunity for the Home Office, without being involved in too much expense, to relent a little on the previous decision and say that it is prepared to make this grant. The permanent officers would feel that their job was appreciated and would be keener to carry on with the work of recruiting trainees and offering the best facilities possible. I think that they would feel that their services were appreciated, and that the job was worth while. Even if they are doing so well that they cannot do better, they will feel that they are meeting the need to an even greater extent if they see that there is some recognition from the Government.

I ask the Under-Secretary to give this matter further consideration and to try to see his way clear to grant this very small concession. I ask him to say to every Civil Defence volunteer throughout the country, not just in Romford, "You are doing a really grand job; we very much appreciate what you are doing and we want you to go on doing it." I asked him to bear in mind, too, that we are thinking of recruiting for the future. All these things will be affected by this very small, but to those concerned very generous, gesture. I ask most sincerely that this concession may be granted the consideration which it warrants and for which I have asked.

10.6 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. W. F. Deedes)

A cup of tea holds a unique place in our national life. In many places and on many occasions it has come to be regarded as indispensable, and I think that no one with any experience of the Services, of industry or of office work will treat a request for a cup of tea lightly. I am certainly not going to do so in response to the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Ledger) tonight.

In addition to its stimulating properties—I understand that medicinally it is a stimulant whereas alcohol is a sedative—it is a social lubricant and a most welcome addition to all social occasions, particularly in the evening. That, I think, is one of the factors which the hon. Gentleman had in mind. Of course it is true that Civil Defence volunteers are giving their services for nothing, and moreover they are training at a time when such refreshment is especially welcome, probably for the majority after an evening meal or tea, but nevertheless at a time of day when a cup of tea is welcome.

I accept that providing a free cup of tea might seem only a small token of appreciation for their efforts. That was the point which the hon. Gentleman ended by making. For these reasons it may well be said that it would be niggardly to refuse, but there are one or two factors which, quite naturally, the hon. Gentleman did not stress which I think it is fair to take into account in assessing the balance.

First there is our Circular 8/51, which makes provision for social and recreational facilities—that is crockery and cooking utensils, purchase or hire of equipment for entertainment or sports but excluding food and beverages. There is under that head an allowance of 5s. each year in respect of each volunteer in active membership of the corps. Local authorities are authorised to spend on a specified scale, and 75 per cent. of what they spend ranks for grant. I may add that good use has been made of that not ungenerous concession.

In the second place, subsistence rates are paid for an absence, from door to door, including travelling time. On these lines, subsistence for more than three hours is half-a-crown, for more than five hours, 3s. 6d., and for more than ten hours, 6s. 6d.

These rates are now being reviewed, and we are reviewing the cases that do not at present qualify; and among other things we shall have in mind the case of the man with whom I have much sympathy. This is the volunteer who goes to his Civil Defence training direct from his work because he has not time to go home for a change, a wash and a meal, and who may not get home until three hours later. The hon. Member probably had that man in the forefront of his mind. In the course of reviewing those rates we shall see that that man is borne in mind.

In the third place, fares are reimbursed. I do not want to make too much of any of these three factors, but it is fair to set them against what the hon. Gentleman has said about the obligation under which we all lie to these volunteers who give so freely and generously of their spare time. All these things go some way to meet the out-of-pocket expenses which are unavoidably incurred in all voluntary service. To that, the cup of tea may seem a modest and trivial addition. The cost to the individual is trivial but to the taxpayer it is not quite so negligible.

I do not want to make overmuch of statistics, but it is a fact that the training of a volunteer takes 50 hours. Reckoning 25 two-hour periods, at 2d. a cup of tea each time, the cost would be 4s. 2d. For 100,000 volunteers, that would amount to £20,000, which is not a sum to be sniffed at. That is not the limit. I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about Romford being satisfied with a cup of tea and undertaking not to press the matter beyond that, but the hon. Gentleman cannot speak for all those who would be involved in any arrangement or concession that might be made here.

There are circumstances in which a cup of tea might appear rather niggardly. My recollection of the N.A.A.F.I., where, incidentally, the soldier has to pay for himself, is that the normal requirement was "tea and a wad". A biscuit, sandwiches or a slab of cake, whatever one may say about the future commitment, goes well with a cup of tea. Experience of dealing with matters of this kind shows that an allowance of 2d. or 3d. might not meet the case and might not be generally acceptable. We might soon be told that 6d., 9d. or more per head for each appearance at a training session would be the least that could be decently offered. I am not attributing that to Romford but there would, of course, be others involved.

We must also think of the man who does not like tea, or whose tastes have corrupted in the United States of America and who prefers coffee. I sometimes think that there are occasions when cocoa is equal to either, and there may be others of the same school of thought.

It is difficult to relate suggestions of this kind solely to the Civil Defence Corps. It is true that not all the voluntary services have the same problem. There are differences of obligation and different training methods. It would be difficult to make arrangements for Civil Defence personnel only. The line if thinly drawn between them and other services. It would not be difficult to reach a point at which the taxpayer would be contributing to the cost of quite substantial refreshments. In my opinion that would not be justified.

Mr. Ledger

Could the hon. Gentleman give some idea of the other services which would be involved? That caused me a little concern. I could not bring to mind other voluntary services doing a similar job which might want to make a request of this kind.

Mr. Deedes

I do not want particularly to mention names because it would then look as if I were associating them with requests for similar arrangements, but if the hon. Member considers the various badges which one sees at Civil Defence parades and the services which co-operate with the Civil Defence Corps, he will know the kind of movement that I have in mind. I do not want to mention them by name because it would be thought that I was associating them with this request.

A solution might be to shorten the subsistence period from three hours to two hours. That has been considered, but it has many drawbacks. My feeling is that it is a question of drawing the line, and hard cases can always be quoted on the other side of the line. It is not easy today, when the inclination to do something for nothing is perhaps less strong, to decide how far it is right and proper entirely to reimburse or seek to reimburse the volunteer for all his efforts. With public money we have to strike a line between meanness and extravagance.

I do not disagree with what the hon. Member said about showing appreciation for the splendid national work that these people are doing. All that is perfectly true, and it may be that a cup of tea would be a big factor in helping morale and showing gratitude. I think we have struck the right line. I am reinforced in my view by the fact that, although the suggestion has. been made from several quarters, it cannot be said that there is a really strong demand for this concession. While we shall enter on this review bearing in mind the points that I have mentioned and which the hon. Member has in mind, we cannot see our way to accepting the proposition as he has advanced it tonight.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes past Ten o'clock.