HC Deb 15 February 1956 vol 548 cc2355-7
34. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affiairs how many Centurion tanks have been supplied to Egypt, Jordan and Iraq, and how many to Israel.

42. Mr. Janner

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the numbers of Centurion tanks supplied, respectively, to Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Israel, during each of the 12 months from February, 1955, to January, 1956.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd

It is not the practice to disclose details of military equipment supplied to foreign Governments.

Mr. Shinwell

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether it is correct, as has appeared in several newspapers here and overseas, that Egypt has had thirty-three Centurion tanks, Jordan has had twelve, Iraq eight, and Israel none? Will he in particular answer the last part of my supplementary question and say whether Israel has had any at all?

Mr. Lloyd

The right hon. Gentleman is endeavouring to make me depart from the practice which I have just confirmed.

Mr. Stokes

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman state the relative firepower of the Centurion and the Sherman mounted with the high velocity French gun?

Mr. Lloyd

That is a question which, if put to the appropriate Minister, will no doubt be answered.

Mr. Janner

In view of the fact that the Foreign Secretary knows that these Centurions have been supplied, will he not agree that that is a breach of the Tripartite Declaration in that it makes it impossible for anyone faced with these Centurions to be able to defend himself, unless proper arms are supplied for the purpose?

Mr. Lloyd

In regard to the existing balance of strength, I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider what his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) said the last time we debated this issue.

Mrs. Braddock

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware, in spite of the fact that he says it is not usual for information about this matter to be given, that every docker on the Liverpool and Birkenhead line of docks knows for a positive fact that thirty-four Centurions have been shipped from Liverpool and Birkenhead to Egypt within the last six months?

Mr. Lloyd

That may be so, but it does not affect the position, which is that it is not the practice of the Government to give such information, the reason being that it is impossible to give a complete picture by quoting individual figures. To do so would have no regard to what countries are getting from other countries; the procedure would be highly unsatisfactory to purchasers and might well result in countries purchasing from other suppliers, when we would lose all control.

Mr. Robens

May I put the question in another way? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied, taking into consideration the supply of arms to the Middle East generally, that the balance of arms is being maintained and so contained within the Tripartite Declaration?

Mr. Lloyd

I am satisfied that the present position is as I stated it when the matter was debated. I recognised quite frankly that in the future a different situation might arise.

35. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the total value of arms applied for by Egypt and Israel, respectively, in the last 12 months; and what is the percentage sold to each country.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd

No, Sir. As the right hon. Gentleman himself said on 18th April, 1951,"It would be contrary to practice to disclose figures of cost or other details of contracts with foreign Governments."

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I am not asking for specific details of arms that have been supplied to the countries concerned, but merely the money value of the arms supplied? Would he be good enough to say, for the enlightenment of myself and other right hon. and hon. Members, whether it is possible to assess the truth about the balance of arms in Middle East countries unless we have the information for which I have asked?

Mr. Lloyd

It would be quite impossible; it might make it more difficult to assess the situation if the right hon. Gentleman received only a small part of the picture. As I have said, there are many other countries which supply arms.

Mr. Shinwell

In that case, if it would be invidious to supply hon. Members with a part of the picture, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be good enough to give us the whole picture?

Mr. Lloyd

I have pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that it is not within my power to do so, because there are many other countries which supply arms.

43. Mr. Janner

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will name the countries from which are derived the supplies of arms to Egypt which are to be taken into consideration when the signatories of the Tripartite Declaration meet in respect of the implementation of that declaration.

Mr. Dodds-Parker

Egypt, like other sovereign States, has access to arms supplies from all countries able and willing to supply them. It would not serve, any purpose to give a list of these countries. Our own policy, as explained many times to the House, is based on our best judgment in the light of all factors and in furtherance of the policy of the Tripartite Declaration.

Mr. Janner

But is the hon. Gentleman aware that unless an actual attack is made by Egypt, that Answer leaves no possibility at all for anybody to examine the position in the light of the Declaration? Is the hon. Gentleman proposing to stand on the ground that we are never to know at all whether the judgment of the Government is right in this matter? Will he say whether such countries as Spain are supplying arms to Egypt at present?

Mr. Dodds-Parker

If the hon. Member will put down a Question, I will endeavour to answer it.

Mr. Janner

With the same answer.