HC Deb 07 December 1956 vol 561 cc1647-58

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Wills.]

12.52 p.m.

Mr. David Weitzman (Stoke Newington and Hackney, North)

I am extremely sorry to observe that there is no representative of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance present on the Government Front Bench.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith)

May I inform the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend is on his way. I regret that business has been more expeditious than was expected, but he has left another appointment to come to the House and will be here in a moment.

Mr. Weitzman

I took the personal precaution of getting in touch with the Ministry within the last hour and informing the Ministry that business would be expeditious today. But now that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary is present, I can proceed.

On 1st December, 1952, over four years ago, I called the attention of the then Ministry of National Insurance to the fact that there was no area office of the National Assistance Board in the Borough of Stoke Newington, and that it was causing considerable hardship to residents in the borough who had to apply to the area office in Tottenham. I asked what steps were being taken to remedy that state of affairs. I was informed that the provision of an office would be considered, if suitable premises could be found, but that in the meantime arrangements had been made for personal inquiries about assistance to be dealt with at the local office, which is at 191. Stoke Newington High Street.

The position was that the premises at 191, Stoke Newington High Street were then being used as an office for two areas, not only Stoke Newington, but also for the large area of Tottenham, for the purposes of pensions, sickness benefit, industrial injuries, disablement benefit, widows' pensions and matters of that kind, which, of course, come under the terms "pension" and "National Insurance", but for matters relating to National Assistance, applicants had to go to the National Assistance office situated then, as it is now, in Lansdowne Road, Tottenham. Forms for National Assistance may be obtained at any post office, but for any personal application for assistance, or where people wanted to make inquiries about personal assistance, they had to go to Tottenham.

There are cases where families are dependent on sickness benefit, and where the application has to be made for assistance to bridge the period of eligibility. There are matrimonial cases where deserted wives are without means and have to apply for immediate assistance. There are cases of physically handicapped persons who find it very difficult to travel when they have to apply for assistance; and, of course, there are cases of women who have to make personal calls, and often have to make this journey attended by children. I have instanced only cases of hardship. There is no place in Stoke Newington to which they can apply, and they have to travel to Tottenham.

The National Assistance Board office in Tottenham is three miles from Stoke Newington. It involves, in some cases, a single bus fare of 8d., and certainly in the majority of cases a single bus fare of 6d. It is obvious, therefore, that the failure to provide such an office for ready and immediate assistance in Stoke Newington constitutes a real hardship.

As I have said, I raised this matter over four years ago. What has happened since? In December, 1952, after I raised the matter, the National Assistance Board was approached by the town clerk of the borough of Stoke Newington. He asked that all cases of National Assistance should be dealt with at 191, Stoke Newington High Street, the local office. He was told—I wish to emphasise this because of what I proposed to deal with later—that the premises were inadequate. The matter was raised again in the early part of 1953. The same answer was given. In October, 1954, the town clerk, on behalf of the Stoke Newington Borough Council, offered for this purpose the use of part of premises in what is called their Hall of Remembrance, which had just been vacated by the Ministry of Food.

The town clerk was told that it was too small, but he was informed that the Ministry of Works was proceeding with the erection of a new building at Tottenham, and that on the completion of that building, it would be handed over to the Ministry of National Insurance; and the office until then used in Stoke Newington High Street for Tottenham cases of Pensions and National Insurance would be available for the purposes of the National Assistance Board for Stoke Newington. As I said, that was in October, 1954. On 10th February, 1955, a letter was received from the Deputy-Controller of the National Assistance Board stating his intention to establish an area office at Stamford House, Stoke Newington, as soon as the Tottenham office of the Ministry of Pensions could be removed to Tottenham—that is, the one at Stoke Newington High Street could be removed to Tottenham—where premises were being erected, provided that accommodation was suitable.

It was said that it was hoped that the new building would be ready by May, 1955. Because of the difficulty of adaptability, there was little prospect of an office for National Assistance purposes being open ready for this purpose in Stoke Newington before November, 1955; but an assurance would be given that it would be done as soon as was readily practicable. The next thing was that a letter was received on 10th November, 1955, from the regional controller asking for the co-operation of the council in finding suitable premises.

The council immediately went into action and an offer was made of premises in Edward Lane. "Not suitable" was the answer. An offer was made of premises at 307, Green Lane. Again the answer was "Not suitable". An offer was made of premises at 189, Stoke Newington High Street. Again the answer was "Not suitable". Matters dragged on in this way.

On July 23rd, I put a Question to the Minister in which I asked him why, despite promises, a National Assistance office had not yet been provided in the borough of Stoke Newington and when he proposed to provide it. His reply stated that it was desirable that such an office should be provided but that, so far, suitable premises could not be found. He added that no promises had been given to open the office at any particular date. In my supplementary question I then pressed upon him the fact that the matter had been raised nearly four years before and that various offers had been made by the council, and I asked him to appreciate the great urgency of the problem and to realise that long and expensive journeys were entailed which caused hardship to many of my constituents.

His reply was that he recognised the desirability of getting premises but there was no suitable accommodation. He then said: But the hon. and learned Member will be reassured to know that the ordinary personal inquiry work is being undertaken by my Department's own office at 191, Stoke Newington High Street; and, of course, in any event, a good deal of National Assistance work can be, and is, carried out by post."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd July, 1956; Vol. 557, c. 1.] I have made it my business to ascertain exactly what the position is. I have visited the premises at 191, Stoke Newington High Street. I did so as recently as yesterday afternoon. I want to put the facts before the House, because if ever there was a glaring example of incompetency and waste of money this is one. The premises at 191, Stoke Newington High Street are used by the Ministry for pensions work and National Insurance. The Tottenham building was completed and has been used since August of 1955, so that since that date the work previously done for Tottenham at 191, Stoke Newington High Street in the way of pensions and National Insurance has gone.

Since August, 1955, a very considerable part of the premises at 191, Stoke Newington High Street have been vacant and not used for any purpose whatever. I saw the rooms yesterday. There are two very large rooms which might be described as small halls and three other very large rooms which are not quite so big. There are also three smaller rooms, making eight in all. There is ample space for a considerable staff and there are canteen facilities available. Those facilities are used by the existing staff and I am told that they could be extended to cater for a very much bigger staff. Just imagine that since August, 1955, these rooms have been empty and not used for any purpose whatever.

It would be hard to find a more blatant example of waste of public money. I suggest that it should be brought to the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I wonder how many similar examples there are in the country.

Today the National Assistance work for Tottenham and Stoke Newington is dealt with at Lansdowne Road, Tottenham, by a staff of 33. I am told that the work for the Stoke Newington area constitutes about one-fifth of the total work dealt with there, and that if the whole of the cases dealt with at Stoke Newington are considered—about 2,000 are dealt with by post and in addition there are calls and personal inquiries—they amount to not more than 2,500 a week. In other words, not more than one quarter to one-fifth of the total work is in respect of Stoke Newington, and the whole work, both Tottenham and Stoke Newington, is dealt with by a staff of 33.

I wish that the Parliamentary Secretary would pay a visit to these premises. I have not the slightest doubt from my personal observations that since August, 1955, there has been more than ample space at 191, Stoke Newington High Street for the staff required to deal with the National Assistance work for the area. Moreover, the rooms are ready and available, they are in excellent condition, there are canteen facilities, and there is no reason why they should not be used from tomorrow. However, somebody seems to have gone from the Ministry of Works, examined the premises and other premises and then said something about there not being sufficient room.

It is a crying scandal that these empty rooms should remain unused when they are so urgently required for this purpose. I ask why, since at least August, 1955, especially having regard to the fact that we pressed this problem again and again upon the Ministry, nothing has been done. In fact, if the Ministry desire to do a useful piece of work, there is the problem of many people in the Hackney part of my constituency who now have to travel a considerable distance to get to the office at Mare Street. There is sufficient space to make such an arrangement that in the available accommodation at 191, Stoke Newington High Street the whole of the work for the Parliamentary Division of Stoke Newington and Hackney, North in connection with National Assistance should be done. That would be to the benefit of my constituents in Hackney, as well as in Stoke Newington.

I have a further point. It was said in 1952 in answer to me, and again in July, 1956, in answer to me, that I need not worry and that personal inquiries into National Assistance work were being dealt with at 191, Stoke Newington High Street. I have asked about that. The truth of the matter is that of course the forms for National Assistance can be obtained there, just as they can be obtained from any post office, but that in fact the staff is there for the purpose of pensions and National Insurance work. There is no one there specially trained in National Assistance work in order to answer queries. All that happens if anybody goes there about National Assistance is that they are referred to the office at Tottenham, yet the Minister said to me in answer to my Question that personal inquiries are dealt with there.

I have taken great care to verify my facts. I present this as a case of gross ineptitude on the part of the Ministry. There have been four years of pressure and inquiry which have resulted in nothing, and I say that at least since August, 1955, premises have been available for the purpose for which they are required. I repeat that it is a scandal that these rooms should remain empty. It is a waste of public money. Meanwhile, my constituents are suffering from a real need which the Minister, in answer to my Question, conceded was a real one. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see that this problem is dealt with at once as a matter of the greatest possible urgency.

1.9 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Edith Pitt)

I am sorry that I was not present when the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) began his speech, but he will appreciate that the Motion for the Adjournment was moved rather earlier than was expected.

The question of the provision of a National Assistance Board office in the Borough of Stoke Newington has been under consideration for some time, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, but I think he would agree that it would not be satisfactory for the Board to attempt to plan its administrative areas on the basis of local authority boundaries. It would be unnecessary and uneconomic to provide an office in every borough either in London or throughout the country.

Mr. Weitzman

May I interrupt? We have plenty of time this afternoon. What could be more uneconomic than to leave these rooms as I have described them since August. 1955, without anything being done?

Miss Pitt

I am coming to that point. I think I shall be able to give the hon. and learned Gentleman a satisfactory answer.

It is important to emphasise that the National Assistance Board has to look at the picture not only in the light of the needs of Stoke Newington, important though they may be, but of the whole pattern of the county. It has to provide facilities for people in every area of the country.

Mr. W. R. Williams (Manchester, Openshaw)

It would be equally reasonable to decide that offices should be within reasonable travelling distance, especially for aged and infirm people, would it not?

Miss Pitt

I quite agree. I have had a fair amount of experience in Birmingham of these matters and I know that in most areas the office accommodation of the National Assistance Board is within reasonable distance for people who want to use them. I admit that in some cases the journey may be long, but not unreasonably so. I appreciate that the hon. and learned Gentleman is doing his best for his constituency, but the Board has never dissented from the view that an office in Stoke Newington would be an advantage and could be justified.

The only difference of view between the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Assistance Board—and the Minister, as expressing the views of the Board-seems to be how pressing the need was for such an office. It was explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman in answer to the Parliamentary Question to which he has referred, and it has certainly been explained to the Stoke Newington Borough Council which has made representations to the Board from time to time, that provided suitable premises could be found an office would be established in Stoke Newington.

In any case, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has reminded the House, it is not necessary for anyone applying for National Assistance to call at a Board office. A simple form is obtainable from any post office. I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman is aware of the procedure. He has gone to considerable research to familiarise himself with the work of the Board's offices in the areas adjacent to his own constituency and with the work of my own Ministry's office in Stoke Newington. In case he does not know, I would tell him that anyone who is in need of National Assistance and wishes to apply has only to walk into a post office to obtain a simple printed form which is very easily completed and is already franked, prepaid, to the address of the local office of the Assistance Board.

Mr. Weitzman

To get a form of application at a post office is one thing and to get immediate assistance is another, because the applicant has to go to the office in Tottenham to get such assistance. He cannot get it without going there.

Miss Pitt

The hon. Gentleman may like to know I have here a form of application for National Assistance, which I always carry in my handbag. Whenever I find somebody who might be eligible I try to persuade that person to apply. This form states: If your need is so urgent that you must have assistance immediately or within the next day or so, please state the circumstances below. There is space for this on the form, to enable people to get assistance within a day or two. I readily admit that there may be people who want assistance within hours. Then, of course, they must go to the nearest office. If their need is so urgent, it is not unreasonable that they should be asked to make a short journey.

In the majority of cases, certainly within my own experience, people either apply for a form at the nearest post office or there is somebody like myself who is interested in the welfare of people and who calls on them and produces a form. Once the form has been received, the National Assistance Board sends an officer to see the individual concerned at home and collect the necessary details.

Mr. W. R. Williams

I gather that the need in this area has been established. Is not the question of finding suitable premises the predominant issue?

Miss Pitt

The hon. Gentleman is taking the case a little further than the facts warrant in saying that the need has been established. It was agreed that it was desirable and that it would help if an office could have been found in Stoke Newington. That argument might be advanced in many areas of the country. In Stoke Newington, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, there was, in any case, a standing arrangement that anyone desiring a personal interview could call at the office—

Mr. Weitzman

This talk about personal interview at the office is a mistake, because the staff at 191, High Street, Stoke Newington, are not trained in personal assistance. All they did when inquiry was made to them—I verified this—was to say, "You go along to the office in Tottenham." How does that square with the idea that personal inquiries are answered at 191, High Street, Stoke Newington?

Miss Pitt

I am a little surprised at the comments of the hon. and learned Gentleman, because most of the officers of our Ministry have sufficient working knowledge to give answers to straight-forward questions. If there is anything complicated, I can understand a person having to be referred to the Assistance Board.

There is room for difference as to whether the need for this office is pressing. I assure the hon. and learned Gentlemen that the Board has all along been doing its best to find suitable premises in the Stoke Newington area.

Mr. Weitzman

Will not the hon. Lady recognise that the premises are there? I have seen them. They are sufficient for any amount of staff. Surely we ought to cut this red tape and get down to the job.

Miss Pitt

If the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to make my own speech in my own way, I will come to the point which gives him the answer he is seeking. He should know that it has not been easy to find suitable premises in the Stoke Newington area. He has detailed the answers that have been given showing that the premises to which he has referred were not satisfactory. The hon. and learned Gentleman also knows that the local authority has been most anxious to give practical suggestions about suitable premises. The Board would like me to acknowledge the assistance which the local authorities have tried to give. At various times, the local authority has given particulars of four properties, but none, on inspection, proved suitable for the purposes of a National Assistance office.

Apart from the wish to help residents in Stoke Newington, the Board had another reason why a local office in that area would be desirable. The present premises at Islington of the Assistance Board are not satisfactory by any means. Other accommodation, much more suitable, but smaller, is available in the Islington area. If suitable premises could have been established at Stoke Newington, some of the case-load from Islington could have been moved to Stoke Newington, and the Board would have been able to transfer from Islington, from the present unsatisfactory premises, to the satisfactory premises that were available.

This is the point for which the hon. and learned Gentleman has been waiting. I am glad to say that arrangements are now in hand which the Board thinks will help all the interests concerned. The difficulty has been premises, as I have tried to stress. It was not until the middle of last year that any premises of sufficient size, that might offer possibilities of satisfactory adaptation, came to notice. The particular premises to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred are part of the premises which were used by the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance.

It was about this time in the middle of last year that the Ministry of Works informed the National Assistance Board that part of Stamford House, occupied by the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, had become vacant. It was not at that time considered by the Board that this vacant accommodation was sufficient or was of a suitable character to provide really satisfactory offices, and so the search continued. In August of this year, having once again drawn a blank, the Board reviewed the position. It has been anxious to help. It came to the conclusion, that, despite its defects, unless this vacant accommodation was utilised, the prospects of setting up an office in Stoke Newington were very remote. So, again, this accommodation was viewed and the Ministry of Works has been able to agree to a scheme of adaptation which will enable it to be used.

I want to emphasise the date, which was in August of this year. I think that the hon. and learned Member and other hon. Members will appreciate that certain other steps had to be taken. There had to be consultations with the staff side, and there were questions of boundary adjustments to be agreed, but on 19th November—I think the date is not without importance—provisional agreement was reached on a scheme of adaptation, and on 3rd December the Ministry of Works was informed of the Board's acceptance of the premises subject to the adaptations being agreed. A great deal of work still has to be done before the premises will be ready for occupation, but the Board now has hopes that at long last there will be an office in the Borough of Stoke Newington by the late spring.

This will give relief to the neighbouring areas of Islington, Tottenham and Hackney, as well as a service to the people of Stoke Newington. I must emphasise that the provision of an office in Stoke Newington, where, as the hon. and learned Member said, the need was moderately small, could be considered only in the light of what that office could provide to assist adjoining areas. That is what the new proposals will now cover. I think that this will give some pleasure to the hon. and learned Member and the borough council. If, with the cooperation of the Ministry of Works, the work of adaptation and improvement can be expedited to enable the office to be opened sooner than the late spring date estimated, I assure the hon. and learned Member that no one will be more pleased than the National Assistance Board.

Mr. Weitzman

I am very grateful that, at long last, the Ministry has moved in the matter, but I must emphasise that from what I have seen there seems no reason whatever why the use of these premises should be postponed until the spring of next year. They appear to be in such perfect condition that they could be used tomorrow if the desire was there.

Miss Pitt

I have no doubt that the premises are in good condition, as they were recently vacated by my Ministry, but they must be made to serve the purposes of the Board and some adaptations are necessary.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes past One o'clock.