Nurses

HC Deb 30 April 1956 vol 552 cc26-30

35. Dr. Stross

asked the Minister of Health how many male nurses were recruited for service in mental hospitals during 1954; and how many left the service in the same year.

Miss Hornsby-Smith

I regret that this information is not available.

Dr. Stross

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that opinions are being expressed that it is possible to find this information and that it shows that as many people left in the first year as joined in the first year, that the wastage was 100 per cent.? If that be so, is not it surprising that the Parliamentary Secretary and her right hon. Friend have not got information of this type? We can supply it.

Miss Hornsby-Smith

No. The statistics show the numbers in service at particular dates, not the numbers recruited and lost in the intervening periods. It is not altogether easy when the loss in one hospital is off-set by the same person finding employment in another. Therefore, we have the net figures on specific dates.

36. Dr. Stross

asked the Minister of Health what increase in salary is available in the mental health service, as a result of the recent agreement, to new male entrants who are married and have one child.

Mr. Turton

The basic allowances of new entrant student mental nurses under 21 are being increased by amounts varying from £20 to £45 and of those over 21 by amounts varying from £80 to £110 per year. The discontinuance of dependants' allowances will however mean that student mental nurses with a wife and one child will have these increases reduced by £72 16s. 0d. a year.

Dr. Stross

Will not the Minister agree that this constitutes a real grievance for this last class of people—student nurses who are married and have one child? In view of the wastage referred to in the last Question and the difficulties which this service is now experiencing, will not the right hon. Gentleman look at this sector again and at this class of recruit?

Mr. Turton

This agreement was freely negotiated with the nurses' representative who regarded it as a new structure for the profession and likely to attract recruits.

Dr. Summerskill

This is a very serious matter. Would not the Minister agree that the supplementary question which I put after Question No. 34 is appropriate also to this Question? Would the right hon. Gentleman therefore answer the question why, at this stage, we are not increasing the incentives to these mental hospital students, rather than reducing them?

Mr. Turton

In considering this problem the staff side came to the conclusion that the right way to attract recruits was to make training more attractive to those students who had no dependants. That is why students without dependants have a very considerable increase in their training allowance. It is perfectly true that those students with dependants, who in total number only something like 1 per cent. of all student nurses, have this deterrent which I have mentioned in my answer.

Mrs. Jeger

Would not the Minister agree that this is a field of nursing in which there is a need for the rather more mature people who perhaps can make a special contribution? In view of that, could the right hon. Gentleman take further steps to examine the question of these older married students just entering the profession?

Dr. Summerskill

May I put a second supplementary question as this is such a serious matter? Would not the Minister agree that at this time he must not think in terms of special categories and whether it is right to attract young or old to the mental service? We are desperately in need of young and old, and I am told that, as in all hospitals, the number of married women is high among these young nurses. Surely, if there are men and women with dependants who are prepared to devote the whole of their lives to nursing the insane, the right hon. Gentleman should welcome them and give them incentives also, rather than try to diminish the number?

Mr. Turton

In this reply we are not dealing with the position of those who are staff nurses. They have a very substantial increase under the Whitley Council award. We are dealing purely with student nurses. In answer to the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mrs. Jeger), a student nurse who is over 21 and has no dependants has had a great increase in the training allowances. It is quite true that there is a small minority with dependants who have this deterrent—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]—but that was negotiated with the staff side of the Whitley Council, which came to the conclusion that the new structure was what is desired.

Dr. Stross

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Speaker

I should have welcomed that notice earlier.

38. Air Commodore Harvey

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the concern amongst members of the nursing profession with respect to the lessening of the differential in pay between trained and untrained nursing personnel; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Turton

The recent pay agreement has widened the differential between trained and untrained nursing staff by amounts from £5 to £15 per year.

Air Commodore Harvey

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many cases unskilled staff are earning almost as much as trained staff? Is he proposing to allow that trend to continue because, if so, it will seriously affect recruitment?

Mr. Turton

As I said in my reply, the differential between untrained and trained staff has been raised by amounts varying from £5 to £15 a year.

39. Mr. Collins

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that, because of the withdrawal of allowances, some student mental nurses suffer financial loss despite the wage increase of 40s. per week; and if he will take steps to rectify this anomaly.

Mr. Turton

No, Sir. I understand that all student mental nurses now in training will receive an increase.

Mr. Collins

Is the Minister aware that unmarried students over 21 who no longer receive the meals allowance will be getting an "Irishman's rise"? Does not he think that this will be a definite handicap to recruiting?

Mr. Turton

What is happening is that those who would otherwise lose under the new agreement are being allowed to keep their present remuneration, including allowances, and will receive a special increase of £15 a year. Therefore, the category mentioned in the Question does not exist.

40. Mr. Collins

asked the Minister of Health the number of new entrant male student nurses in mental deficiency and the number of such student nurses who left, whilst still students, in the years 1954 and 1955, respectively.

Miss Hornsby-Smith

The numbers of new entrants were in 1954, 140, and in 1955, 133. In addition, the number of re-admissions were 34 and 25, respectively. The numbers leaving while still students were in 1954, 174, and in 1955, 121.

Mr. Collins

Does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that those figures indicate that in 1954 there was a net loss of students and that in 1955 almost 100 per cent. wastage? Is she not of the opinion that the kind of deterrents we have been discussing may not keep nurses and, under those circumstances, will she not ask her right hon. Friend to review them?

Miss Hornsby-Smith

In view of the fact that this new rate has been negotiated and agreed by both sides of the appropriate Whitley Council and that there will be a substantial increase for the vast majority of student nurses. I think it would be unreasonable for us to interfere with a settlement arrived at so expeditiously and with such harmony on both sides.

41. Mr. Collins

asked the Minister of Health what opportunities within the National Health Service exist for mental nurses to be trained for and secure appointments as psychiatric workers and occupational therapists with mental patients and in domiciliary mental nursing.

Miss Hornsby-Smith

No special arrangements are made, but the same opportunities are open to mental nurses as to others.

Mr. Collins

Does not the hon. Lady think that special arrangements should be made, in view of the fact that trained mental nurses would obviously be the most suitable people for this kind of work, and that if arrangements of this kind were made it would provide the career incentive so sadly lacking at present in mental nursing?

Miss Hornsby-Smith

So far as psychiatric social workers are concerned, it would involve university courses. It is open to any nurse to change her occupation to that particular sphere if she desires to. The Association of Occupational Therapists is considering training concessions for mental nurses. At the same time mental nurses may be given unqualified employment in either field at the discretion of the employing authority; or they might be employed by a local authority by virtue of their professional training as mental nurses.

Sir F. Messer

In view of the fact that it has been proved that mental nurses are very efficient occupational therapists, may I ask whether the Ministry will encourage this trend?

Miss Hornsby-Smith

The Association considering this is doing so at the request of my right hon. Friend.