HC Deb 21 March 1955 vol 538 cc1729-34
30 and 31. Mr. A. Henderson

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) the means by which nuclear bombs can be tested other than by an explosion;

(2) to what extent those nuclear experiments which can now be carried out without explosions involve the release of radioactive substances harmful to human health and welfare.

Mr. Nutting

In the debate on 14th March, my right hon. Friend said in dealing with the question of test explosions of nuclear weapons: We cannot exclude the possibility of experiments being carried out now without explosions. Experiments aimed at perfecting or improving existing designs or adding to existing stocks of nuclear weapons can be carried out without test explosions. My right hon. Friend did not say that a nuclear weapon can be fully tested without an explosion. I am advised that experiments carried out without explosions would release little or no radioactivity.

Mr. Henderson

As even a small amount of radioactivity might be released, may I ask the Minister of State whether, instead of waiting until July when the conference of scientists is to take place at Geneva, he would consider utilising the World Meteorological Organisation, of which both Russia and the United States are members, and which has a very fine record of world co-operation, for the purpose of checking the contents of the world's atmosphere through its physicists and then pooling that information, as is done with weather forecasts?

Mr. Nutting

I will consider the right hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion, but, as I think he knows, a great deal of research is going on in this country at the moment—a matter which will be alluded to in tomorrow's debate—by medical authorities, including the World Medical Research Council.

Mr. Strachey

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that development can, to a certain extent, go on without test explosions is no reason for failing to press for the abolition of these explosions, which would be the one practical means towards making a start for some sort of international agreement limiting this form of arms?

Mr. Nutting

I think that the right hon. Gentleman would also agree that it would be very dangerous if the people of this country should fall into a false sense of security, which might easily result from an abolition of tests, without, at the same time, being able to ensure that our potential enemies were unable to perfect or improve existing designs of nuclear weapons.

Mr. Nabarro

Is it not a fact that, in any event, the restricted release of radioactive material to which my right hon. Friend referred in connection with warlike purposes is infinitely less than the amount which we are at present discharging by developing atomic power for purely peaceful purposes?

Mr. Nutting

I think that this is all getting a little too scientific for a Foreign Office Minister.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Since the tactical aspects are quite as important as the scientific aspects, will the Minister not consider my right hon. and learned Friend's suggestion that the World Meteorological Organisation might take into consideration the whole matter of testing for radiation in the atmosphere?

Mr. Nutting

I said that I would. I was merely describing very briefly—what I hope will be fully discussed tomorrow—what is being done.

Mr. S. Silverman

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what consideration the Government have given to the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in the debate a little time ago for having a meeting of international scientists from both sides to investigate what are the consequences of these explosions?

Mr. Nutting

I think that had better be left to be thrashed out in the debate tomorrow. For the moment, I will only say that I think this matter must be dealt with through Governments and not left to international scientists.

32. Mr. D. Healey

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the latest scientific evidence, he will make proposals for a ban on all experimental atomic explosions.

33. Mr. E. L. Mallalieu

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now give the result of his inquiry into the possibility of banning further experimental nuclear explosions, haying regard to the danger of such explosions to the human race.

Mr. Nutting

I would refer the hon. Gentlemen to the statement made on this subject by my right hon. Friend in the debate on 14th March. I would only add that the aim of Her Majesty's Government is to reach agreement upon a balanced and comprehensive disarmament programme which would include the abolition of all nuclear weapons and thus eliminate such test explosions.

Mr. Healey

As it is only atomic explosions which produce dangerous radiation effects at long distance; as such explosions are not necessary for purposes of research, as the Minister has just admitted, and as such explosions can be monitored without difficulty, will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is an overwhelming case for banning such explosions?

Mr. Nutting

No, Sir, as was explained by my right hon. Friend, and as I have just endeavoured to explain in answer to the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friends.

Mr. Mallalieu

While agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman's expressed intention to obtain the maximum amount of disarmament in the widest possible field, is not this a peculiarly suitable case for a beginning, in that these explosions can be tested and checked, no matter where they take place? Will the right hon. Gentleman not follow up his right hon. Friend's suggestion that he would look into the possibility of obtaining agreement to stop these explosions in the near future?

Mr. Nutting

My right hon. Friend never said that he would agree to stop these test explosions in the near future. Certainly not. What he said was that the non-existence of test explosions did not mean that the nations possessed of nuclear weapons were not improving and perfecting them simply because they were not actually having explosions.

Mr. Attlee

Surely, the right hon. Gentleman is rather dealing with irrelevancies. The point raised was whether or not the atmosphere was being endangered by nuclear explosions. The fact that research can go on without endangering human life does not alter the fact that, if they are going on, we may be in danger. According to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), we are being endangered by tests carried out for peaceful means as well. We may be killed by the hon. Member for Kidderminster! Surely, it is worth inquiring into that?

Mr. Nutting

At the risk of contradicting my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), I will say that my scientific advice at the moment is that there is no danger to human life or to the reproduction of the human animal from any explosions which have so far taken place.

Mr. Strachey

Are we really to conclude from what the Minister of State says that the opinion of the Government is that they are against the banning of these test explosions as a first step unless we can go much further in the way of disarmament because it might produce a sense of false security in this country? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if that is the position, the British people will have no sense of security, false or true, in the ability of the Government to protect their interests?

Mr. Nutting

The right hon. Gentleman is making a travesty of my argument. What I said was that the Government wished, and are striving for at every session at Lancaster House, to ensure a balanced and comprehensive disarmament programme that will eliminate all nuclear weapons.

Mr. Henderson

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proposal by the Government of India for a standstill agreement of tests, which was remitted to the special committee of the General Assembly, has been considered at Lancaster House?

Mr. Nutting

I am not allowed to divulge what is and what is not being considered at Lancaster House. We are governed by the strictest rules of secrecy, and I cannot divulge any part of our business.

Mr. H. Fraser

Does the hon. Member for Leeds, South-East (Mr. D. Healey) propose that there should be a ban on other persons making these atomic explosions? What could be more dangerous in this country than to ban test explosions?

35. Mr. E. Fletcher

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, notwithstanding the United States Atomic Energy Act of 1954, Her Majesty's Government will press the United States Government for the fullest information as to the genetic effects on human beings of radioactivity resulting from thermo-nuclear tests to be made available in this country.

Mr. Nutting

The provisions of the United States Atomic Energy Act of 1954 relating to health and safety refer primarily to work in the civil field. Most of the information concerning the possible genetic effects arising from nuclear tests is not secret, and there is already close collaboration between British and American research workers and constant exchange of information in this field.

Mr. Fletcher

Are we to understand from that reply that the Minister of State recognises that there is all the difference in the world between the secrecy involved in making and designing nuclear weapons and scientific knowledge as to the effects of nuclear explosions? May we take it that in the interests of humanity and peace Her Majesty's Government are pressing the United States Government for all available information as to the effects of nuclear explosions upon the human race?

Mr. Nutting

We are already receiving a great deal of information from the United States Government about the effects of these explosions, and under the agreement which we are now negotiating we hope to receive even more.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Will the Government ask British scientists to give their evidence upon the subject and publish it?

Mr. Nutting

That is a different question from the one on the Order Paper.

36. Mrs. Castle

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will propose the calling of a special meeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations to discuss the effects of hydrogen bomb tests on the world's atmosphere and to set up an international study group to examine and report on the genetic and other consequences of these tests.

Mr. Nutting

No, Sir; my right hon. Friend does not consider that a debate in the United Nations General Assembly at the present time would advance our knowledge of these scientific questions. But he does not exclude exchanges of views with such other countries as may be ready and able to make a useful contribution.

Mrs. Castle

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of British scientists, including Professor Waddington, in "The Times" the other day, have supported the plea of the American Federation of Scientists for a United Nations inquiry into this matter? Is he aware that we are now reaching a position in which British and American scientists are warning us that this danger is real and immediate and are, by implication, accusing Governments of concealing the facts?

Mr. Nutting

The hon. Lady talks as if no research work were going on into this problem whatever but, as I have said—and the debate tomorrow will bring out the fact far more fully—a great deal of work is going on on both sides of the Atlantic, and a great deal of information is being exchanged.

Mr. Attlee

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he will want to make a much better reply to tomorrow's debate than that?