VOTE 2. RESERVE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES (Hansard, 15 March 1955)

§ Mr. de Freitas
I hope that the Under-Secretary will take the opportunity of clearing up some misunderstandings which exist about the rôle of the H-reservist in Civil Defence. Page 29 of the Estimates mentions the H-reservists and their obligations under the Civil Defence (Armed Forces) Act, 1954, which the House dealt with a few months ago.
Then there is, as the Home Secretary mentioned in the defence debate recently, another task put on the H-reservists, that of training in fire-fighting, apart from this work in the mobile columns. I shall not develop the matter as time is now very short, but there is much uncertainty attaching to the H Reserve, because the Government have made so many different announcements at different times. It would help a great deal if the Under-Secretary of State could tell us what the liabilities of the H-reservists are now, and what it is proposed they should be, in Civil Defence and Home Defence.
Could he, at the same time, assure us about the Auxiliary Air Force—those 20 good squadrons? The first thing the new Minister of Defence did was to dishearten all the Auxiliary squadrons by completely changing their rôle and dismissing them as of no value at all. I feel particularly strongly about this because when I had the honour of serving as Under-Secretary of State in 1946, I had some little to do in helping the Auxiliaries to get going again after the war. Naturally, I have a large number of friends in those squadrons, and I have received a number of protests. Those protests are not only about what has been done but about the way in which it was done. What is the hon. Gentleman going to do to recapture the real enthusiasm and good service of the men of the Auxiliary squadrons?

§ Mr. Beswick
My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) has referred to the uncertainty of the H Reserve liabilities. I want to refer to the 1253 unfairness of those liabilities. According to figures given to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), there appear to be some 136,000 National Service men who have completed their full-time training and who now have Reserve liabilities. Out of that number of 136,000-odd only 77, according to the figures here, did part-time training during 1954:77 individuals. These are the figures according to HANSARD.

Mr. Ward
Seventy-seven people?

§ Mr. Beswick
Yes, 77.
On what principle were the 77 selected? What did they do, these remarkable 77? How were they selected? On what sort of queer process where they selected?

Mr. Ward
That 77 has got some noughts on it.

§ Mr. Beswick
If the hon. Gentleman is surprised I do not wonder at it, but 77 is the figure given here.
Would he tell us about these people? How were they selected? Why were they wanted? What happened to all the others? Had they no liability for duties? Had they no part-time obligation remaining to them?

§ Mr. Wigg
I think my hon. Friend is confusing the Under-Secretary of State. He is a little confused. That is because, I think, the number 77 relates to those men doing evening training. The 7,000 the hon. Gentleman wants to tell us about are those men doing their annual training.

§ Mr. Beswick
My hon. Friend is quite right. He studies these matters very carefully. However, there were 8,000 who did the whole-time training, and only 77 did part-time training. This is a travesty. It is called sometimes universal National Service training. There is no universality in this at all, and there is no fairness in it at all, and I think that some explanation or apology is owed to the Committee about the position.

Mr. Ward
Let me deal very quickly with the question asked by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) about Civil Defence. The Royal Air Force share of the mobile defence columns which have been announced is 12 columns out of the 48. That means that we shall 1254 give 2,500 men a year one month's training during their whole-time service. Then, when they pass into class H, they will be called up to do their Reserve service and, over the period of three years, the number will build up to 7,500, which will man our 12 mobile columns. Starting in October, we shall begin this training at Dumfries.
The other part of the Civil Defence training concerns the class H reservists. I described that last year. It was a scheme under which we were to take in 15,000 men a year and give them each two periods of training, so that in any one year we should have had 30,000 under training. Owing to the new home defence measures which have been announced by the Minister of Defence and by the Home Secretary, we have had to modify slightly our original scheme for class H training.
We shall now take in each year 10,000 men instead of 15,000 and give them each two periods of training in fire fighting, so that in any one year, when the scheme is operating fully, there should be about 20,000 men being trained. We expect that the first depot and the first instructors will be available in July, and that we shall be able to train about 7,000 of those men this year.
As for the point raised by the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick), we have debated that subject often before and I am prepared to debate it again, but there is not much time tonight. I have always been frank about the principles governing the call-up of the class H men, and we determine the number to be called up for their National Service by the need to keep the force fully manned to discharge this cold war task, to mount a deterrent force and to keep the air defences in readiness. We shall not call up men for Reserve training for the sake of calling them up and wasting their time. We shall only call up the class H men we need on the outbreak of war.

§ Mr. Beswick
Would the hon. Gentleman give some indication of who were the unfortunate 77?

Mr. Ward
I think that the hon. Gentleman is confused.
The nomenclature is important. If the hon. Gentleman is talking about part-time and full-time service, he means the difference between the two-year Regular service and the three and a half years on 1255 Reserve. If he wants to talk about the evening training, he must talk about non-continuous training or, if he is talking about 21 days a year, he must talk about continuous training.

§ Mr. Beswick
The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with it like that. I am using the term which he used in answer to a Question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). It appears in HANSARD of 4th March, 1955, c. 311–12.

Mr. Ward
What the hon. Gentleman wants to know is how many Class H men we called up last year.

§ Mr. Beswick
I am asking about those who were called up for part-time training in 1954.

Mr. Ward
Part-time training is the liability of the National Service man for three and a half years. That is what the hon. Gentleman meant. About 8,000 were called up last year.

§ Mr. Beswick
Seventy-seven.

Mr. Ward
Eight thousand.

§ Mr. de Freitas
Would the hon. Gentleman look at this point again before Thursday?
It was part of a written answer given in the OFFICIAL REPORT on 4th March, the heading of which is "Numbers who did part-time training during 1954." The figure given under that heading is 77. As my hon. Friend asked, who are these 77? Was it just favouritism that they were called up, or what?

Mr. Ward
It means people who did voluntary training in the evenings.

§ Mr. Beswick
Voluntary training?

Mr. Ward
The number of people actually called up to do their part-time service under their liability was 8,000.

§ Mr. Beswick
This says part-time. Let us get the matter straight. As I understand it, 136,000 have an obligation to do part-time training but, according to the figures of the Under-Secretary, only 77 were called upon to perform that obligation.

Mr. Ward
That is not so. Perhaps we can return to this point on Thursday? If somebody is lucky enough to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on Thursday, I shall be glad to deal with it.

§ Mr. de Freitas
I hope that that will be done.