HC Deb 07 March 1955 vol 538 cc13-4
34. Mr. Driberg

asked the Minister of Health approximately how many mentally defective adults are employed by private firms outside the institutions in which they live; what are the terms and conditions of such employment, and to what exent they are agreed with the appropriate trade unions; what proportion of the wages paid in such cases is issued or credited to the patients who earn them; and what proportion is retained by the institutions to cover these patients'board and lodging.

Mr. Iain Macleod

No figures are available of the numbers involved. Employment of this kind is essentially a part of treatment and its nature and remuneration therefore depend on individual circumstances. Any special problem is a matter for discussion with the local representatives of the trade union concerned. The deductions made for board and lodging vary and are calculated in accordance with advice given to hospital authorities, of which I am sending a copy to the hon. Member.

Mr. Driberg

Does that mean that the right hon. Gentleman does not lay down any general standards which should be conformed to? Is he aware that contractors sometimes get away with paying less than £3 a week for a hard and presumably useful week's work by physically fit high-grade mental defectives? Is not such exploitation grossly unfair both to the patients—who cannot argue for themselves—and to other workers whose pay is thereby undercut?

Mr. Macleod

As the hon. Gentleman will see from the circulars which I am sending to him, I lay down how various calculations should be made in relation to the pay which a patient obtains. I do not think that it is practicable to have central discussions with trade unions in this matter because the cases vary so enormously, but local difficulties often are rightly discussed with the local branches of the trade unions concerned. If the hon. Member knows of any case where he thinks there is any element of exploitation or which is not essentially related to the welfare of the patient, I shall be glad if he will let me have particulars.

Mr. Driberg

I appreciate that hospital authorities themselves have the best of intentions, and do this for the patients' welfare, but will the right hon. Gentleman consider suggesting to them that they ought always to discuss these cases with the local trade unions concerned and not only often, as he says they do?

Mr. Macleod

I shall certainly look into that. Part of the difficulty is that there is such an enormous variety of cases. So far as I know, no particular difficulties have arisen in relation to trade unions.