§ Mr. Logan (by Private Notice)asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the prevalent discontent of young men now unemployed in seagoing occupations being called up for military service because they cannot now claim service exemption on account of being out of work; and if he will grant resumption of their former exemption status to men who return forthwith, and cancel their calling up papers.
§ The Minister of Labour and National Service (Sir Walter Monckton)The call-up for National Service of young men between the ages of 18 and 26 is suspended so long as they are employed as merchant seamen. If they cease to be so employed for whatever reason, they are called up in the normal way.
If the strike were brought to an end now, call-up action would cease in respect of men notified to my Department by the appropriate authorities as being again employed as merchant seamen.
§ Mr. LoganIn Liverpool there is great credit given—we must admit that he deserves it—for the valuable work done by the Minister in negotiations, but I want to tell the Minister and this House that the question of putting men in the Army over a strike is going to cause more trouble in the Mercantile Marine than anything I have ever experienced in the City of Liverpool.
§ Sir W. MoncktonPerhaps I might answer what I think is a question to me. The question of whether or not a man has left the Merchant Navy is not decided by the Ministry of Labour. The position is that men employed as merchant seamen, if registered by the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen, are deferred, but when they cease to be so registered it is notified to my Ministry and it becomes necessary to call up those men in the ordinary way. The notification we get comes from the Merchant Navy Establishment Administration, which is a body set up by the National Maritime Board, upon which both sides of the industry are represented, and the notification is made by that Administration to the Ministry of Transport's Mercantile Marine Superintendent of whatever the port may be. He in turn 1146 notifies the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen of that Ministry, and he sends the form to the Ministry of Labour and National Service, upon which the action we take is automatic.
§ Several Hon. Members rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Shinwell.
§ Mr. LoganI am sorry to intrude, but this matter is of such importance that I am anxious to see an end of it. I do not want to see the shipping of that great Port of Liverpool held up. My anxiety is to try to get the difficulty removed. I am anxious that the Minister should give some kindly advice to the City of Liverpool on this occasion, without extravagant language being used on either side. That would be very useful.
§ Sir W. MoncktonPerhaps I ought to have read part of my answer more slowly. The second part of the answer was:
If the strike were brought to an end now, call-up action would cease "—
§ Sir W. Monckton
in respect of men notified to my Department by the appropriate authorities as being again employed as merchant seamen.
§ Mr. ShinwellWhilst not condoning in any way an unofficial strike, although I think there are substantial reasons for the action taken by some of the men—that probably is a matter for debate—may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman if he is aware that this is the first time in our experience that the Shipping Federation has taken such action and that, moreover, it appears to be a form of intimidation? I am sorry to press the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but may I ask him, if it was desirable to take this action in the case of these seamen who have engaged in an unofficial dispute, how it is that quite recently, in an unofficial dispute of some duration in the coalfields, no similar action was taken. Why the discrimination?
§ Sir W. MoncktonI am perfectly willing to answer that fair question put by the right hon. Member. What I was seeking to say—I hope I made it plain—was that the action of the Ministry of Labour in this matter depended upon whether the men remained registered or not, and for that we had to depend on a 1147 different Ministry—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sure that I shall be listened to with patience as I try to explain this matter. The Merchant Navy Establishment Administration, the basis of the information, is a body set up by both sides of the shipping industry. It passes on the information, and as a result of that I am notified that those men are off the register. There is no similar administrative procedure which applies in the coal mining industry, but I would add that in respect of men who are deferred because they are working underground in the mines we inquire from time to time, at regular intervals, as to whether those men are still so employed because, if they cease to be so employed, they are called up. In this case, under the language of the document which explains deferment, I am bound to call the men up if they come off the register.
§ Mr. ShinwellIs the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that all this arises out of what is called the pool arrangement for the registration of seamen, with which some of us are very familiar—it was adopted seven years ago? In all our experience, although men have been disemployed for quite long periods they have still been retained in the pool, and there has been no question of calling them up. Why was it done on this occasion? Is it not because of the unofficial strike and is it not, therefore, a matter of intimidation?
§ Sir W. MoncktonI want to make my position plain. As Minister of Labour I have to treat these men as deferred while they are registered with the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen, and when they come out of the pool I have no choice under these regulations but to treat them as available for call-up. The same does not apply in the coal mines.
§ Mr. J. HowardIs my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many merchant seamen with a large number of years to their credit deplore the action of these unofficial young strikers and say that they have joined the Merchant Navy to escape liability for military service?
Mr. LeeIs it not a fact that in dealing with deferment for miners we have to discriminate between people working on the face and those working on the surface? For that reason, I suggest there 1148 is a necessity for registration. If this action is now to be taken as a precedent, at any time the National Coal Board could go through the same procedure as this shipping pool has done to ensure that people in an unofficial strike in the coal mines are called up.
§ Sir W. MoncktonMy position is really quite clear in regard to coal mining occupations. Men who are employed in certain coal mining occupations, so long as they remain in them, are deferred. As the hon. Member knows from his experience at the Ministry, from time to time I have to inquire whether they continue in that underground employment. If they do, they are left alone, and, if not, we call them up. But in this case the test is not the same; it depends on registration and that is not a matter for me.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsSince these regulations, in their varying forms, have been in existence for some time, is not this a precedent? Have there been discussions, and is this acceptable to the trade unions?
§ Sir W. MoncktonAs far as any acceptance by the unions is concerned, I think I should defer an answer to that question; I do not think it would be desirable to give it now. So far as the precedent is concerned, our practice has always been the same, namely, that if a man has been out of the pool, we then call him up. In my experience there has not been another case, I am glad to say, of a shipping strike of this sort.
§ Mr. BottomleyIs it not a fact that the Ministry of Labour is responsible for the call-up and has powers to defer call-up? Knowing the Minister and the work that he has done to secure industrial harmony, may I ask whether he will not consider what powers he has to stop this threat of intimidation?
§ Sir W. MoncktonI have to exercise such administrative functions as are left to me in accordance with what has been laid down in the documents, one of which I have already been reading to the House. That makes it quite plain that when people are out of the pool, my task is to see that they, like their fellows, are subject to the call-up for National Service.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanUnder what authority does the Registrar-General compile his register and what instructions are given to him as to what names are to be on and what names are to be off, or is this a purely arbitrary decision? Ought not the right hon. and learned Gentleman to meet the point that has been raised this afternoon? Ought he not to make it quite clear, or to amend the regulations, if necessary, so as to make sure that a man's name is not to be removed from the register if his unemployment arises directly out of a genuine trade dispute?
§ Sir W. MoncktonThe answer to that is that I really cannot be responsible for the way in which the Registrar-General of Shipping and Seamen and the Merchant Navy Establishment Administration of the Ministry of Transport perform their functions. All I do know—and I am sure that the hon. Member who started this discussion is aware of this—is that the notification to the Registrar-General, upon which he acts, is a notification made by the Merchant Navy Establishment Administration to the appropriate officer of the Ministry of Transport; and that Establishment Administration is a body set up by both sides of the shipping industry.
§ Mr. PagetAccording to the Minister, this has to pass through two Ministries and either two or three boards or independent authorities. Is there any record of anything ever having passed through channels of this sort with such extraordinary speed? Is it not quite obvious that in this case the call-up is being used as an anti-strike weapon?
§ Sir W. MoncktonI can speak only for my own Ministry, and for that I will say this. Since I have been there, as soon as notifications of this sort—that a man has ceased to be employed in the industry in which he was deferred—arrived, we have acted without delay. I can add that we have made no difference in this case from any other example in my experience.
§ Several Hon. Members rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The Home Secretary.