HC Deb 16 June 1955 vol 542 cc728-34
4 and 5. Mr. Dodds

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he has yet come to a decision in the consideration he has given to referring to the Monopolies Commission the prices of petrol and oil for investigation;

(2) if he is aware that eight British electrical firms have submitted identical tenders for equipment for the Snowy Mountain hydro-electric and irrigation scheme; and what steps he intends to take to prevent this practice, in view of the harm which it does to our export reputation and trade.

6. Mr. Wade

asked the President of the Board of Trade what representations have been made to him on the subject of identical tenders received by local authorities for a variety of materials required for building and other purposes; and what steps he proposes to take as a result of such representations.

8. Lieut.-Colonel Lipton

asked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from local authorities on the subject of price rings.

11. Mr. Wade

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will refer the subject of price fixing in the cement industry to the Monopolies Commission.

14. Miss Burton

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that local authorities are disturbed at the price-fixing indicated by identical tenders which are submitted to them; that the growth of this practice has been such that the Association of Municipal Corporations is now collecting evidence on the subject; and whether he will therefore refer the problem to the Monopolies Commission in so far as cement, chain link fencing, bolts, nuts and washers, wire nails, sheet lead, pipes and traps, galvanised metal windows and standard metal windows and doors, road tar, bitumen emulsion and precast concrete goods are concerned.

18. Mr. J. Johnson

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will have the supply of cement by the cement industry investigated by the Monopolies Commission.

24. Mr. Stokes

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will refer the oil industry to the Monopolies Commission.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft)

With permission I will answer these Questions together. Since the Monopolies Commission was set up it has produced 11 Reports, on eight of which action has already been taken. The latest of these Reports is one under Section 15 of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Act, the receipt of which was announced by the Prime Minister on 9th June. At the present time the Commission has nine inquiries on hand and it is expected that reports on at least three of these will be received before the end of this year.

I have had under consideration a programme of further references to the Commission for the next six to nine months. On 23rd July, 1952, when announcing the first reference under Section 15 of the Act into practices which prevail throughout industry generally, I emphasised the importance of this type of investigation. I now propose to send to the Commission a further general reference under Section 15 covering common prices and level tendering, both of which have been much in the public mind in recent months.

I intend in addition to make a number of individual references. I wish to emphasise, as I have done before, that the making of a reference in no way prejudges the question whether or not the arrangements involved operate against the public interest. It is indeed one of the main functions of the Commission to inquire into this point. The references which I expect to make very shortly will be on the supply of steel frames for buildings, electrical street lighting, tea, chemical fertilisers and electric batteries.

Mr. Stokes

On a point of order. Before we proceed to supplementary questions, may I ask whether it is not without precedent in this House that a Minister should lump together such a variety of Questions and endeavour to answer them by one quite unsatisfactory Answer?

Mr. Speaker

I have known that done several times.

Mr. Dodds

Further to that point of order. Is it not out of order for the Minister to lump in Questions about oil and then not make any reference to them afterwards?

Miss Burton

In thanking the President of the Board of Trade for the progress revealed in the Answer, may I ask if he is aware that price-fixing behind closed doors has caused great anxiety to local authorities? Will he be prepared to remit evidence submitted to him by local authorities to the Monopolies Commission on this question?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I am sure it will be open to local authorities to give evidence before the Commission. This reference will cover the whole field of common prices and level tendering. It is an important matter which, I think, deserves a general reference of this kind.

Mr. Stokes

May I ask the President of the Board of Trade two questions?

Hon. Members

Do not lump them together.

Mr. Stokes

I always expect the Tories to copy us. If they borrow my phrases I do not mind. There is something to be said in some cases for similar prices to save labour, but might not the difficulty be overcome by insisting that when similar prices are put in they shall be accompanied ultimately by a costs certificate declaring the amount of profit made on the job and, if anything beyond the agreed profit has been made, that amount should be deducted from the contract? Secondly, am I to understand that the reason the President has veiled his Answer on the oil monopoly is that he has been already got at by the oil interests?

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Mr. Speaker

I am not sure whether the right hon. Member meant anything sinister by that remark.

Mr. Stokes

Yes, I did, Sir.

Mr. Speaker

If the right hon. Member meant to accuse the President of the Board of Trade of any wrongful practice, he ought to withdraw that.

Mr. Stokes

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I am not accusing the President; I am accusing the oil interests.

Mr. Speaker

I think that is rather unsatisfactory. The right hon. Member has been a Member of this House for a long time and knows the rules as well as I do. He ought to observe the proper courtesies.

Mr. Stokes

In so far as I was imputing any dishonourable action to the President, I withdraw, but so far as I imputed dishonourable intentions to the oil industry, I entirely confirm them.

Mr. G. R. Strauss

May I ask the President of the Board of Trade, in connection with his suggested reference to the Monopolies Commission of the structural steel frame industry, if it is not a fact that as the major concerns in that industry were under public ownership before denationalisation it would be quite unnecessary to refer that industry to the Commission if the Government had not denationalised the iron and steel industry?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I do not think that is the case at all. I think these practices have been going on for a considerable time. I express no judgment one way or the other as to whether they are right or wrong or in the national interest, and I do not think the question of ownership enters into this matter. The question is, is the practice in the national interest? I think that is a sensible question for the Commission to inquire into.

Mr. Strauss

If they were under public ownership, the Government would give directions to these people about practices which they should pursue in the public interest.

Mr. Thorneycroft

I hardly think it would be wise to nationalise on a vast scale in order that directions on all these complex matters might be issued by Government Departments.

Mr. Attlee

Was it not unwise, in view of the result, to denationalise the steel industry?

Mr. Thorneycroft

It is very doubtful whether any of these firms was ever nationalised.

Mr. Speaker

We are to have a debate on many of these questions, including prices, and we really cannot debate them at Question Time, in fairness to other hon. Members who have Questions on the Order Paper.

Mr. Stokes

Now that everyone has got a little cooler—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."—well, I have—may I ask the President to answer my question about a costs certificate? Surely he would get over a great deal of his difficulty if he insisted on a costs certificate and insisted that anything above an agreed amount of profit should be deducted?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The right hon. Member has put forward one suggestion which fits into the vast and complicated picture of common prices and level tendering. Just because, as he admitted, the answer may differ as between one industry and another, I am making a general reference so that the Commission can advise on points of that kind.

Mr. Dodds

On a point of order. Do I understand that as I raised a point of order seeking your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I forfeited any right to ask a supplementary question on Question No. 4?

Mr. Speaker

There is really no right to ask a supplementary question. I try to allow it if I can, but in this case there are so many hon. Members wishing to pursue the subject that I think it would be in the interests of the House as a whole if we passed on and discussed these matters in the debate which is to ensue.

Mr. S. Silverman

On a point of order. When Questions are answered together the Minister always uses the formula "with permission, I will answer this Question with" other Questions. It has always been assumed that that permission is the permission of the Chair and of the hon. Members concerned. It is a great incitement to such hon. Members to withhold that permission if the effect of giving it is to deprive them of the opportunity which otherwise they would have of asking a supplementary question.

Mr. Speaker

I think that is perfectly true in most cases, but this is such a contentious subject which raises so many other things, and we have so many Questions on the Paper that I must ask the House to follow this course.

Captain Pilkington

Mr. Speaker, are you able to require the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) to repeat his allegation against the oil companies outside this House?

Mr. Speaker

I am not concerned with allegations made against oil companies. They do not come under my protection, but hon. Members do. I thought the right hon. Member admitted, in a way which is understood by the House, that perhaps he was a little heated at the time; at least he said he was a little cooler at one subsequent moment.

15. Miss Burton

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now prepared to take steps to speed up the work of the Monopolies Commission, both in the preparation of reports and the promptitude with which these are dealt with by Her Majesty's Government.

Mr. P. Thorneycroft

I have already taken steps to increase the Commission's output by doubling its size and enabling it to work in groups. My colleagues and I will continue to take prompt action where the Commission's reports show this to be desirable in the public interest.

Miss Burton

The President will be aware that we would not wish the members of the Government to be doubled to enable them to deal with these matters more promptly, but is he aware that people are concerned at the long time which is taken by Her Majesty's Government to deal with these reports, and could he give any guarantee that they will be more prompt in future?

Mr. Thorneycroft

We shall certainly be as expeditious in the national interest as we can.

19. Mr. Grimond

asked the President of the Board of Trade what inquiries are at present being undertaken by the Monopolies Commission.

Mr. P. Thorneycroft

There are nine of them. With permission, I will circulate full particulars in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Grimond

Is the President of the Board of Trade satisfied that when this extra work has been put on the Commission it will have the powers and the personnel to deal with these inquiries, some of which he himself has described as vast and complicated?

Mr. Thorneycroft

Yes, certainly, I think that the Commission is fully adequate to deal with these inquiries.

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