BATTERY RAIL-CARS, SCOTLAND (Hansard, 13 July 1955)

§ Sir Robert Boothby (Aberdeenshire, East)
I rise on this occasion to deal with a somewhat narrow aspect of the problem of monopolies which we have just been discussing, because this railcar business to which I propose to refer appertains to another monopoly—namely the Transport Commission. What I have to say can be said very briefly, and I hope that several of my hon. Friends who are interested in this problem will 2070 have an opportunity of putting their arguments as well.
I am not greatly concerned about whether on these branch lines we should try out battery rail-cars or diesel railcars. That seems to me a proper subject for experiment. My complaint is that the Transport Commission has done nothing effective on these branch lines about either; and that we are miles behind the continent of Europe in this aspect of railway transport—and, indeed, in railway transport generally. It would be generally accepted, I think, that having had in this country the best railway transport system in Europe—and perhaps in the world—now we probably have the worst, or one of the worst; at any rate, not one which can compare with the railway system either of France or of Germany.
I wish to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, first, that he should give serious examination, with the Transport Commission, to the E.T.A. 176 rail-car, which was produced in Germany in 1952. It is a battery rail-car which has had quite an astonishing success, for which substantial orders have now been placed in Germany, which operates at a low cost, and which has been particularly successful on what are known as the secondary or branch lines.
My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary probably knows that my main motive in raising this issue on the Adjournment arises from the fact that a branch line in my own constituency, running from Aberdeen to Macduff through Turriff, one of the great agricultural districts of this country, is still open for goods traffic—so that the signals and all the rest of the maintenance services are kept going—but is completely closed to passenger traffic. That is a monstrous and utterly unjustifiable thing.
It might be arguable that the line should be closed altogether; but to keep it open with all the ancillaries and the labour necessary for the occasional passage of a goods train, and to shut it completely for passenger traffic is an outrage, and I have no hesitation in describing it in these terms. I have seen 2071 quite a lot of the railways of France and Germany during the past four or five years, and it is really a shaming experience to see these little diesel or battery cars running about the branch lines like trams, stopping at all the stations. and with the permanent way available to enable them to make money.
I say categorically that the British Transport Commission has never even attempted to try this thing out at all. It has just ignored the branch lines which run through many of our best agricultural districts, and also the interests of the people who live thereon. It has said that such a system will not work and that it is not economical, but it has not been tried out.
I am asking tonight that an unbiassed investigation shall be made by the British Transport Commission into the possibility of running diesel or battery rail-cars on the branch lines in some of our rural districts, and that such investigation shall include practical experiments which have never yet taken place. I am quite sure that, whatever may be my hon. Friend's answer tonight, this House will not be satisfied until this happens.

§ Mr. Rupert Speir (Hexham)
I am very glad indeed to have a few minutes in which to support my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby), because the conditions which exist in North-East Scotland are very similar to those which exist in part of the North-East of England. There, too, we have branch lines which are only employed for the running of goods trains. What is worse, there is no adequate service of buses to take the place of the passenger trains which have been withdrawn, although that was promised when the British Transport Commission was given permission to withdraw the passenger trains.
I think that in the Seventh Report of the British Transport Commission, which was debated the other day, it is clearly shown that the rural areas have been treated extremely shabbily, as I thought they were also so treated in the debate on Transport last Monday.

§ Mr. Ernest Popplewell (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West)
Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that each time that there 2072 has been a withdrawal of services, the matter has been fully discussed by the consultative committee in each of the areas, when it had the opportunity to present its case?

§ Mr. Speir
The undertakings which were given that adequate alternative bus services would be provided have not been honoured. The fact is that the British Transport Commission is treating the branch lines, and the rural areas of the country, as poor relations. Just because they do not pay, these lines are being cut down and removed one by one. It is about time that the Commission appreciated that this is an essential service, for unless the rural areas get some transport facilities the urban areas will not get their food.
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend when he says that it is time that more imagination was used by the British Transport Commission, that more experiments were made and that the Commission tried to provide some kind of service. We do not want the kind of service of which the Commission publishes photographs on page 11 of its Report, the service which it calls "light-weight diesel units" and costing £14,000 a unit. They are utterly useless in the rural areas. We want very light-weight units. Many of these branch lines could be turned into light railways. We should have unattended halts, and costs could be cut down in many different ways.
The fact is that the Commission would have a stronger case, and would have much more public sympathy in closing down branch lines, if it made some attempt to make some of them pay. It have not practised what has been practised successfully on the Continent, which is to have light rail-cars running as trams or buses.
The drift from the land is continuing at a rapid rate, and it is my belief that this drift is taking place because of the lack of adequate transport facilities in rural areas. Unless we have better transport facilities the situation will deteriorate still further, and there will be a lowering of agricultural production. I warn the Parliamentary Secretary that the situation is getting worse, and that it is time that we had an inter-Departmental committee to consider the whole problem of rural transport.

§ Mr. Ernest Popplewell (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West)
It was not my intention to intervene in this debate, but the coat that is being trailed and the gross distortion of the facts by hon. Members opposite compel me to intervene.

§ Mr. Speir
What distortion has taken place?

§ Mr. Popplewell
The gross distortion of the facts that is taking place compels me—with some knowledge of the subject—to intervene.
When a branch line is closed down the fullest possible inquiry is conducted by the Transport Users' Consultative Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Useless."] Hon. Members opposite do not like it, but it is the fact. They should not drag red herrings across the Floor. The fullest possible inquiry takes place, at which members of the public have the right to put up a case to the Committee. This Committee is not a sub-committee of the British Transport Commission; it is an entirely independent body. Before it agrees to any closing of a branch line, the most searching inquiry is conducted by it.

§ Sir R. Boothby
Rubbish.

§ Mr. Popplewell
It is not rubbish. The hon. Member had far better keep his remarks to the subject of fish, about which he may profess to know. He does not understand this matter.

§ Mr. Speir
This has all taken place since nationalisation.

§ Mr. Popplewell
Let us go into the facts of the case. The Transport Users' Consultative Committee requests the British Transport Commission—[Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite should show better manners. They should try to act reasonably like gentlemen. The essence of the case is that the Commission has to produce its books and show the number of people using the branch line in question. The Committee takes a careful census of the people who have used the line for a considerable time, and if the public are not supporting it it is closed down. Is there any other industry in the private sector which runs an undertaking at a loss?

§ Mr. Speir
Yes—the banks.

§ Mr. Popplewell
The hon. Member knows that there is not one. The Transport Users' Consultative Committee provided the first opportunity for the public to present its case. [Interruption.] It is no use the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) saying "Nonsense". That just indicates that he does not understand the matter.

§ Mr. Speir
I did not say "Nonsense." I said that under the previous system it was not necessary.

§ Mr. Popplewell
Prior to the introduction of nationalisation the public never had the opportunity to protest. If adequate bus services are not provided where branch lines are closed, it is because hon. Members opposite passed the denationalisation Act of 1953, which has prevented the Commission giving the service it otherwise would have done.

§ Mr. Geoffrey Wilson (Truro)
Nonsense. Not in Scotland.

§ Mr. Popplewell
Hon. Members opposite can shout and howl, but that does not make the case any better. These are the facts of what is happening.

§ Sir R. Boothby
Is the hon. Member maintaining that the people in these rural districts are satisfied and pleased that the branch lines are being closed?

§ Mr. Popplewell
The only thing I can suggest is that when a branch line is closed there is a tremendous howl.

§ Sir R. Boothby
Quite right.

§ Mr. Popplewell
Why have the people not used the line? Their branch lines are there, and if there is no alternative service the Transport Commission keeps the branch line open.

§ Mr. Speir
No.

§ Mr. Popplewell
Where there is no alternative service, the B.T.C. will keep the branch line open. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There are bus services everywhere where these lines have been closed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Very often, due to the failure of private enterprise, the bus service is not as good as is desired, but that is something which hon. Members opposite have asked for, because they have prevented the Transport Commission from integrating the bus services. Therefore, they cannot have it both ways.
2075 When speaking in this House, so that they might get a certain amount of publicity in their local Press, hon. Members opposite should at any rate keep closely to the relevant facts, and in a debate of this nature they should also bring to light the reason why these branch lines are being closed.

§ Captain J. A. L. Duncan (South Angus)
Three minutes is insufficient time for me to answer the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell), although I would very much like to do so. I want to make a plea to the Minister that a thorough inquiry should be made into this whole problem. I have a case in my constituency. Forty thousand passengers a year use the line, but the Transport Commission says that unless there are 120,000 passengers a year it will close the line for passenger services.

§ Captain Duncan
I do not have time to give way. The Commission is keeping the goods trains running but not passenger trains.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) quoted Germany. Doctor Kreissig, of the German Railways, read a paper to the Institution of Locomotive Engineers in March this year about the cost of operating diesel cars as opposed to steam locomotives in Germany. I have translated the German figures into sterling. Taking depreciation. wages, fuel and maintenance into account, the German figure is the equivalent of 1s. 4¾d. per train mile for the rail-bus running solo, or 2s. 24d. per train mile if a trailer is used when additional accommodation is required, or 478d. per passenger mile or .33d., respectively.

§ Mr. Monslow
What reference has this to the subject under discussion?

§ Captain Duncan
A great deal. That compares with 8¾d. per passenger mile for the equivalent steam train.
My hon. Friend said that rail-cars had never been tried by the Transport Commission. I have with me a photograph of a four-wheel rail-car, the sort of thing we want in Scotland, actually running 2076 between Oxford and Reading. It was started before the days of nationalisation. That sort of thing should be experimented with further to show that we can reduce the costs of operation by at least two-thirds, so that instead of having to close the branch lines they can be operated profitably and encourage traffic. Experience shows that these railcars do encourage traffic. And so we could save all this trouble in the countryside and could keep the population there. It would be for the benefit of all concerned.

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. Hugh Molson)
It is my lot more frequently than any other Junior Minister to reply to Adjournment debates. In all that experience I have not known one of these Adjournment debates to be so well attended or to be conducted in so lively a manner. I am at some disadvantage, because my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) raised this matter because of the allegedly unsatisfactory answer given by my right hon. Friend to a Question which he put on 29th June. My hon. Friend then drew attention to the battery rail-cars which, he thought, might be of advantage. My hon. Friend wanted a general direction given to the British Transport Commission to consider his proposal.

§ Sir R. Boothby
Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Molson
In his speech tonight my hon. Friend said he was not primarily concerned with battery rail-cars or with the rival advantages of diesel cars, and he raised the very much broader question of the closing of branch lines. Some of my hon. Friends who have also spoken have widened the issue still farther. As I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire, I thought I discerned a certain amount of Scottish nationalism in his views. A Northumbrian point of view has also been expressed.
In the short time which remains to me, it is my duty, I think, first to deal with the question of the closing of branch lines, secondly with the rail-cars, and thirdly, to indicate what the Commission has tried to do to cheapen and improve the services which are provided to rural areas.
2077 In the first case, this House, regardless of party, has asked the Commission to balance its accounts, taking one year with another.

§ Sir R. Boothby
It is not going to do that at this rate.

§ Mr. Molson
I would point out to my hon. Friend and to my other hon. Friends that on Monday last we had a whole day's debate upon the Report of the Commission. When such criticisms are made as have been made it is only right that they should be dealt with in a debate in which it is possible for the Government spokesman to deal with them at full length. It is extremely difficult to me, in the short time I have, to deal with all the subjects which have been raised in this debate.
If we ask the Commission to balance its accounts, we are under an obligation to support it when it asks for the closing of uneconomic services.

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Thomas Oswald (Edinburgh, Central)
Hon. Members opposite are willing to spend other people's money.

§ Mr. Molson
As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, West (Mr. Popplewell) mentioned, each one of these cases is referred to the Transport Users' Consultative Committee. [Laughter.] It is all very well for hon. Members to laugh, but unless and until some new procedure is provided by this House these public-spirited people, who have these difficult matters referred to them, and who hear evidence presented by those concerned, are entitled to be given credit by this House for arriving at a fair decision.

Hon. Members
Hear, hear.

§ Sir R. Boothby
Has my hon. Friend noticed where the cheers are coming from?

§ Mr. Molson
What is more, whenever there is a proposal for a branch line to be closed, a number of those who protest against it are those who have not used the line for many years past.

§ Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow)
How right the Parliamentary Secretary is.

§ Mr. Molson
Where the Transport Users' Consultative Committee agrees with the proposed closing of a branch 2078 line, the Government are prepared to support the British Transport Commission in what it is doing.
The first thought of my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire in raising this matter was about battery railcars. I had provided myself with a number of facts and figures which tend to show that battery rail-cars are not normally any more efficient than light diesel vehicles.

§ Sir R. Boothby
I do not care which it is, let us have one or the other.

§ Mr. Molson
When my hon. Friend gave notice of his intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment, he said that he intended to discuss rail-cars.
The first disadvantage from which they suffer is the same as that suffered by the old electric broughams which, Mr. Speaker, you may remember seeing some years ago and which have not become more popular with the passing of time. The disadvantage is the tremendous weight of the battery as compared with the weight of the vehicle. I have made some inquiries about this. The battery rail-cars needed for one branch line cost £50,000, because they have to be built of a specially light alloy on account of the great weight of the batteries.

§ Sir R. Boothby
They cost less in Germany.

§ Mr. Molson
That may be so.
My hon. Friend also raised this matter especially from the Scottish point of view. These vehicles are only comparable in efficiency with diesels provided that they are able to be recharged at a cost of not more than ¾d. per unit. The Commission has been in touch with the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board. The price which the Board quotes for recharging batteries is 2.1d. The Commission is prepared to undertake experiments provided that the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board contributes to the cost and is prepared to agree that if the experiments are satisfactory it will continue to recharge batteries at ¾d. per unit.
As to closing branch lines, at present it is obvious in both England and Scotland that the diesel locomotive is likely to be more economical than the battery rail-car as long as it is not possible to 2079 obtain current at ¾d. per unit. On one of the last branch lines to be closed down in Scotland, the average number of passengers travelling in the two trains that ran in each direction during the day was six and thirteen. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is the answer."] What is happening at present—and this is the reason for the Commission's attitude—is that before the passenger train services are closed, the Commission shows the actual cost of running the passenger trains. If my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire wishes to raise also the question of goods trains, I can tell him that it would be economically justifiable to close a large number of branch lines in Scotland and England, which at present are being kept going not because they are an economic proposition, but because they render service to hon. Members' constituents.

§ Mr. Archer Baldwin (Leominster)
On this question of consultative committees, I would like to read a few lines from the report of the inquiry held in connection with the fight to save the Isle of Wight railways. Here is what Mr. Melford Stevenson, Q.C., said: The issue is now clearer than it has ever been since the inquiry began. You have been presented by the Railway Executive with a set of figures that are false, possibly by carelessness or inadvertence. It is no part of my function to assign motives, but the figures have now been demonstrated beyond any doubt as quite wrong. 2080 Yet the consultative committee swallowed those figures and the line was closed.

§ Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock)
I think it is remarkable that, after hon. Gentlemen opposite all trooped through the Lobby last year in support of a Government Measure in connection with the railways which, among other things, gave Scotland a special new area council sitting in Edinburgh to deal with all these problems, once again the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Sir R. Boothby) should come along tonight and say how badly we in Scotland are being treated.
The whole thing arises as the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has shown. He said these lines have been closed down because they do not pay. But what were hon. Gentlemen saying as they stumped about the country only recently? They were saying the nationalised industries were not paying. They will have to face up to the actualities of transport, and when they say that transport must provide the service as claimed by the national interest, they will get some sympathy from these benches. I myself am quite prepared——