§ 43. Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the bombing by the Royal Air Force of five villages in Southern Arabia on account of the failure of tribesmen to pay a fine in rifles and money; whether he will give instructions prohibiting such forms of collective punishment which impose indiscriminate hardship; and ensure that punishments are imposed only upon persons proved guilty of lawbreaking or violence.
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydYes, Sir, but I am not prepared in present circumstances in the Western Aden Protectorate to disallow collective punishment by air or other action. Every precaution is taken to ensure the safety of tribesmen against whose property it is decided to take action.
§ Mr. FreemanIs not this method entirely contrary to all sense of British justice—this indiscriminate bombing of innocent people who have done no harm and no wrong? Will not the Minister send a strong protest to those concerned on similar lines to that sent to the Egyptian Government, who have been bombing people in the Suez Canal area? Is not the attitude of the Government entirely contrary to the idea of justice in these days?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI think that the comment of the hon. Member is a gross travesty of the facts. Collective punishment is imposed only when collective tribal responsibility for the crime can be ascertained. It is the only practical method of dealing with offences of this kind in the Protectorate, as successive United Kingdom Governments of very different political views have continuously held.
§ Mr. BurdenIs it not a fact that there is very considerable misconception about this matter, and that before any bombing takes place an area is prescribed, warning leaflets are dropped, and people are given at least 24 hours to evacuate these mud villages before action is taken?
Mr. DugdaleIs the right hon. Gentleman stating that it is the policy of the 1932 Government to bomb people for no other crime than simply refusing to pay fines?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydNo, Sir. I said that when crimes had been committed—crimes take different forms—collective punishment of this kind is invoked, but, as my answer made clear, every precaution is taken to ensure the safety of tribesmen against whose property it is decided to take action. I think that right hon. Members who have had responsibility for difficult areas of this kind, which are not under our direct administration, and who know, for example, the Aulaqi country, where there has recently been a considerable amount of trouble, will recognise that where it is not possible to identify and arrest individual culprits it is essential to take action of this kind.
§ Mr. StokesIs the memory of the Minister so short that he does not recall the protests we raised when the Germans carried out the collective bombing of Lidice? Is he aware that most hon. Members will regard this as an absolute outrage, and that, if the authorities are not capable of collecting their fines in any other way, they certainly ought not to do it in this way?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI have two answers to the vigorous supplementary question of the right hon. Member. The first is that this policy was also carried out by the Government of which he was a Member——
§ Mr. Stokes indicated dissent.
§ Mr. Lennox-Boyd—though, bearing in mind the practices under the Labour Government, perhaps his colleagues forgot to tell him so.
§ Mr. StokesWhen?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydThe second answer iS—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] The second answer in replying to the supplementary question—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]——
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The right hon. Gentleman has been asked a question. He ought to be allowed to reply.
§ Mr. PagetOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has made a grave allegation. We asked him when and where this took place. Surely we are entitled to an answer?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe Minister was asked a question. He was in the course of replying to it when he was interrupted by cries to answer another question or a question arising out of his answer. He ought to be allowed to finish his original answer. Mr. Lennox-Boyd.
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI was in the process of answering both parts of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The first one was that this had been carried out by previous Governments—[An HON. MEMBER: "What has that to do with it?"]—both in Arabia, and in previous years on the North-West Frontier of India, where the circumstances closely approximate to those pertaining to Arabia. The answer to the second part of his supplementary question is that if the right hon. Gentleman, with all his past experience behind him, is prepared to compare this with the indiscriminate bombing of Lidice, he must have no prospect whatever in mind of ever assuming responsibility again.
§ Mr. StokesAs the Minister chooses to refer back to some date of which I have no knowledge—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—and probably under conditions entirely different, will he please tell the House precisely to what he does refer so that we may all have a clear understanding?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydPerhaps the right hon. Gentleman had better do now what I should have thought would have happened in most Governments: that is, consult his former colleagues.
§ Mr. Alport rose——
§ Mr. AlportIs my right hon. Friend aware—
§ Mr. SpeakerThere is a point of order. Mr. Paget.
§ Mr. PagetA grave allegation was made by the Minister that the Labour Government had carried out this indiscriminate collective punishment. Will he either substantiate that or withdraw it?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is not a point of order. It is a matter of debate and recollection. I cannot stretch my memory in these matters. In any case, it is after half-past three.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsMay I ask the Minister——
§ Mr. SpeakerI was interrupted by a point of order, but I had called the hon. Member for Colchester. Mr. Alport.
§ Mr. AlportIs my right hon. Friend aware that the form in which collective punishment was extracted from the villages in Malaya by the former Labour Government caused very much greater hardship upon those concerned than the bombing, under very strict control, of mud villages in the Aden Protectorate? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the facts of the method used by the Royal Air Force in this case are widely publicised so that people in this country are not led away by the idea that the Royal Air Force is taking part in what might be regarded as bad action against the villagers in the Aden Protectorate, which is not true?
§ Mr. StokesBefore the Minister replies, may I ask whether he is aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] I am asking a question. [Interruption.] Is the Minister aware that conditions prevailing in Malaya were entirely different and had nothing whatever to do with the collection of fines?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. StokesShall I repeat my question, Mr. Speaker?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is well after the permitted hour for Questions.
§ Mr. GriffithsYou did call me earlier, Mr. Speaker. May I put my question now?
§ Mr. SpeakerWhen I looked for the right hon. Gentleman to rise a second time, he seemed to be supplanted by his right hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes). In those circumstances, as I cannot allocate priority between right hon. Gentlemen, I called the right hon. Member for Ipswich. I thought that the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. Griffiths) had given up his right.
I ask the House to bear with me in this matter. It is now after the time for Questions and we ought to get on with the 1935 day's business. Apparently, there have been various recollections about this matter in the House, and it is not a matter that can be thrashed out at Question Time anyhow. If there is a desire for debate, later opportunities will no doubt arise.
§ Mr. GriffithsI rose to ask a supplementary question. My right hon. Friend intervened before a reply was given to another hon. Member who was called before me. Since you did call me, Mr. Speaker, will you not permit me to put my supplementary question now?
§ Mr. SpeakerIf it will end the business, yes.
§ Mr. Griffiths rose——
§ Mr. Alport rose——
§ Mr. SpeakerOne at a time, please.
§ Mr. AlportAs the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) has admitted that his supplementary question was interrupted by the right hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Stokes) before an answer was given to my question, would it be possible now for an answer to be given to my question?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not know why the House is getting in such a tangle. Time is getting on. Mr. Griffiths—but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not prolong the discussion.
§ Mr. GriffithsI was going to ask the Secretary of State a question regarding the general charge he made about what happened under the Labour Government—it will be seen in HANSARD tomorrow. While accepting responsibility for all that happened in the time of that Government, may I ask the Minister to make available to the House the exact circumstances 1936 that prevailed on this occasion and the earlier comparable circumstances to which he referred?
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydMay I answer both questions? What my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Alport) said is entirely apposite and well worth consideration.
§ Mr. StokesIrrelevant.
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydIt is very relevant. The fact that it was put forward in a rather quieter voice than that of the right hon. Gentleman does not rob it of its value. As regards what the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) said, I am even higher on the list for Questions next Wednesday than I am today, and if a Question is put down on this matter I will, of course, answer it.
§ Mr. HamiltonThat will be a change.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanOn a point of order. Is it not the invariable custom of the House that if an hon. or right hon. Member makes a statement about another Member, whether Minister or back bencher, and that statement is repudiated, the Member who has made the statement is expected either to substantiate or withdraw it? Are we not now in that position?
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that the right hon. Gentleman has undertaken to do so if a Question is put down to him next Wednesday.
§ Mr. FreemanIn view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply, and in view of this gross abuse of British justice, I intend to raise this whole matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.
§ Mr. SpeakerI wish that the hon. Member had said that a little earlier.