§ 1 and 3. Mr. Jayasked the Minister of Fuel and Power (1) if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to sell coal to industry in the United Kingdom at world prices;
(2) whether he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to sell imported coal at the world price.
§ The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd)I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave on 4th July to the hon. Members for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) and Ashfield (Mr. Warbey).
§ Mr. JayEven after the recent rise in prices, is not British industry still getting coal at substantially below the world price? In the circumstances of uneconomically low prices, is it not inevitable both that consumers of coal use it wastefully and that the National Coal Board cannot pay wages adequate to attract enough manpower into the industry?
§ Mr. LloydThere is not really a world price of coal in the classical sense, because American coal is cheaper than British coal and European coal is more expensive. If the right hon. Gentleman means the landed costs, that would mean a further increase of £2 per ton in the price of coal.
§ Mr. JayDoes not the Minister agree that imported coal is being sold here at a price much below that at which it is purchased? Why should the National Coal Board subsidise private industry in this fashion?
§ Mr. LloydThe principles of pricing are exactly the same when applied to coals for private industry and coals for public industry. Take the Central Electricity Authority, for example. There is no discrimination there.
10. Brigadier Clarkeasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will fix the price of domestic coal in the South of England at the same figure as he does in the Midlands.
§ Mr. Geoffrey LloydNo, Sir.
Brigadier ClarkeDoes my right hon. Friend appreciate that old-age pensioners in the South get no more than they do in the Midlands and that his folly is just about ruining them?
§ Mr. LloydThat is one of the suggestions which has been aired in the last 50 years by representatives of areas far from the coalfields.
§ Mr. JayIn view of this great split in the Tory Party, will not the Minister review his whole coal price policy?
Miss LeeIs the Minister aware that there will be growing resentment in the coal industry if coal is not allowed to find its natural price like steel or any other commodity? Is he further aware that there is no reason why domestic coal should not be sold at the same price all over Great Britain and the pensioners helped by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to meet the difference?
§ Mr. LloydI note the desire of hon. Members opposite for a further substantial increase in the price of coal. I am not prepared to adopt that as my policy-
§ 19. Mr. Nabarroasked the Minister of Fuel and Power to what extent the revised house coal prices take account of the loss of £2 per ton in reselling foreign coal.
§ Mr. Geoffrey LloydThe whole of the loss is taken into account.
§ Mr. NabarroBut while the loss may be taken into account, is not it a fact that what is not taken into account is the manifest dissatisfaction of millions of householders all over the country who have been called upon to pay a yet higher price as a result of foreign imports, and most largely due to confusion and bewilderment that is the result of present so-called fuel and power policy?
§ Mr. LloydNo, Sir. I have explained that it is, on the whole, fair that the price of imports should be averaged over the country as a whole. I consider that it would be in the highest degree unfair if some of the consumers, particularly the domestic consumers, were expected to pay the internal price and others were expected to pay a much higher price for landed and imported coal. That would be the absolute opposite of fair shares.
§ Mr. ShinwellCan the right hon. Gentleman enlighten hon. Members on one point about which apparently there is some confusion? Is the coal price policy of the National Coal Board determined by the Coal Board itself, or is it dictated by the Government?
§ Mr. ShinwellCould the right hon. Gentleman be a little more explicit? Does that mean that the policy is actually determined by the Government?
§ Mr. RobensMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in point of fact the Statute lays down that the Coal Board shall be the sole importer of coal—and, if so, where?
§ Mr. RobensI asked where in the Statute it says that the National Coal Board shall be the sole importer of coal into this country.
§ Mr. LloydThe position, as I understand it, is that the Statute lays the responsibility for supplying coal to the country on the National Coal Board. Therefore, there is a direct implication that it has the sole responsibility both for production and importation.
§ Mr. RobensIs not it a fact that the right hon. Gentleman——
§ Dame Irene WardOn a point of order.
§ Mr. Robens—has forced the National Coal Board to import this amount of coal?
§ Dame Irene WardMay I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether a back bencher can now have a chance?
§ Mr. SpeakerIn some degree it depends on the number of front benchers who rise. Miss Ward.
§ Dame Irene WardMay I ask a supplementary question?
§ Mr. SpeakerI do not see why not.
§ Dame Irene WardMay I ask my right hon. Friend——
§ Mr. WiggOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Lady raised a point of order with you. I do not think that you gave a ruling on her point of order. Therefore, she can hardly ask a supplementary question when you have not given your Ruling.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member is in error. I gave a Ruling on the point of order.
§ Mr. ChapmanOn a point of order. A very important question was asked while the hon. Lady was raising a point of order. None of us heard either the question or the reply. I wonder whether we can hear them again.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am not responsible for answers.
§ Dame Irene WardMay I ask my right hon. Friend, whatever the proper interpretation of all the questions and answers may be, to bear in mind that the consumer is thoroughly fed up with this and wants to know when there will be a reduction in price instead of always considering increases?
§ Mr. LloydAs my hon. Friend will see, what I have been resisting in recent minutes is a demand for a further increase in the price of coal.
§ Mr. NabarroMay I give notice pat, in view of the gravely unsatisfactory character of these replies, I shall return to this subject, on the Adjournment, or otherwise, at a very early date.
§ 22. Mr. Robensasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what discussions he has had with the National Coal Board since 1st January, 1955, regarding changes in the price of domestic coal.
§ Mr. Geoffrey LloydI am in constant touch with the National Coal Board and the Board's financial situation and its relation to the general price levels of all types of coal is naturally one of the subjects which comes up from time to time.
§ Mr. RobensWould the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the Question? The Question I wish to have answered is when he had his first discussion since 1st January regarding changes in the price of domestic coal?
§ Mr. LloydI have been in continual discussion with the Coal Board on the question of prices of coal for several months.
§ Mr. RobensMay I ask when the first discussion in this continuous process began? Can the Minister give the date?
§ Mr. AlportOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is there no chance that private Members who have Questions later on the Order Paper will have an opportunity to ask their Questions?
§ Mr. SpeakerSo far, we are running almost up to time; just a little behind.
§ Mr. RobensOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have asked a Question of the Minister and he has not given an answer. He has been evading the answer. Am I not entitled to pursue him now and ask him for an answer? Will he give an answer, or has he the courage to say that he will not give an answer?
§ Mr. SpeakerAs I understood it, the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question was when did the Minister have his first discussion. That is not the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Mr. BurdenFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker——
§ Mr. SpeakerI have replied to the point of order.