HC Deb 15 February 1955 vol 537 cc161-6
8. Mr. Wyatt

asked the Secretary of State for War when he expects to get the results of troop trials of the new rifle adopted for use in the British Army.

Mr. Head

By the end of the summer.

Mr. Wyatt

Is not it extraordinary that, over a year after we were promised by the Government that this rifle would go into immediate production, the Government have not yet made up their mind whether they would like a telescopic sight or an open aperture sight, and other simple matters like that? Is not it the case that the rifle has been redrawn in inches and so, consequently, when it is made it will not be standardised even with the Belgian rifle? Will not it then have to go through troop trials again, and is not it true that there will be no standardisation with any country in the world?

Mr. Head

The hon. Gentleman seems to have enjoyed the trip which I arranged for him to Warminster.

Mr. Wyatt

It was of value.

Mr. Head

The Government never said that this rifle was going into immediate production. The whole point about troop trials is to ensure that the rifle is tried out under every kind of conditions before we go into production, so as to avoid the necessity for subsequent modification.

11. Mr. Wigg

asked the Secretary of State for War how many Fabrique Nationale rifles are in use in the Army; and how many are of British manufacture.

Mr. Head

Five thousand have been ordered for troop trials, most of which have already been issued. British production will not start until troop trials have been completed.

Mr. Wigg

Will the right hon. Gentle-man consider whether these rifles may be maintained by the men in the barrack rooms, because the only way in which a man can learn to get the feel of a rifle is by having it constantly with him? Would not the right hon. Gentleman accept that there can be no security consideration which causes these rifles to be locked up?

Mr. Head

I will certainly consider that suggestion.

Mr. Strachey

Will not the Secretary of State agree that there have been extraordinary delays with this rifle and that the constant change in technical detail which is going on is one more instance of the necessity for standardisation on a particular weapon in our whole defence programme? Is not the present position rather disturbing?

Mr. Head

We have decided that for this rifle. What we are doing now is to have troop trials thoroughly, because by experience it has been found that if we rush into production and find difficulties subsequently, we get into trouble. I would point out that these troop trials' have been carried out very much more quickly than in any previous instance.

Mr. Speaker rose

—

Mr. Wyatt

On a point of order. I have not had an answer to my last supplementary question. May I put it again?

Mr. Speaker

The supplementary question asked by the hon. Member was a rather lengthy one. If all the points in it were not covered by the answer, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down another Question containing those points.

Mr. Wyatt

Further to that point of order. I understand the anxiety of the Government not to answer my supplementary question, but surely I have a right to put a supplementary question and, if it is asked, surely I am entitled to obtain an answer.

Mr. Speaker

I have to try to ration the time between hon. Members. There are other hon. Members with Questions besides the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) who took advantage of his opportunity to ask a supplementary question to ask a rather lengthy one.

17. Mr. Wyatt

asked the Secretary of State for War when he expects the new rifle, adopted for service, to be in general issue to the British Army.

Mr. Head

This depends on a number of factors, and it is too early to make a definite forecast.

Mr. Wyatt

Is not the Minister aware that the British rifle, which he abandoned, would have been in full production by now? Is he further aware that last year he said that by adopting the Belgian rifle we should gain a year in production, which evidently is not the case? Is it not the case that the new rifle which the British Army will have is now being remodelled in inches measurements and not on the Continental metric system and that consequently there will have to be further troop trials when it is finished and also—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—is it not the case that the claim the Government made that they had to have this rifle because of standardisation with other countries will never be fulfilled?

Mr. Head

This rifle is standardised with Canada. [Interruption.] For that very good reason it is being re-measured in inches, in order to gain standardisation with Canada. There is a good chance that this rifle will be taken up by the United States. The Government have always said that the standardisation of rifles with outside sources of production was a major consideration in atomic and, now, in thermo-nuclear war, and I believe that this decision has been proved more than ever right by events.

Mr. Strachey

Is not the Secretary of State going to tell us anything about the continued modification of this weapon which is clearly delaying its introduction from year to year? After all, it is four years since the original decisions were taken. He first reversed those decisions and went for a different rifle, because he said it was more rapid. We now find that nothing has been introduced. Is this Government incapable of bringing any new weapon into service?

Mr. Head

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely misinforming and misleading the House. No decision was taken four years ago and, when I ventured to suggest that he himself had considered a decision, he flatly denied it in this House. Four years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman was in office, he flatly denied it—I say it again. This decision was taken because it was considered to be a sensible thing to do to gain standardisation. No rifle has ever been introduced without troop trials—it would be crazy to do so. What the right hon. Gentleman refers to as constant modifications are nothing to do with that. They are entirely concerned with completing the troop trials and combining all modifications at one time.

Mr. Strachey

The right hon. Gentleman has accused me of misleading the House. That is a serious accusation. Is the right hon. Gentleman denying that the previous Government adopted, not this rifle, but what we are still convinced was a superior rifle of British manufacture? Is he denying that that decision was made and that these trials, which go on and on, all stem from the reversal by the present Government of that decision?

Mr. Head

A decision was never made by the late Government, no decision to go into production—

Mr. Wyatt

That is a lie.

Mr. Head

—was ever made, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.

Captain Pilkington

On a point of order. An hon. Member opposite used the word "lie." Is not that a very un-parliamentary expression?

Mr. Speaker

I did not hear it because of the noise which was going on. But if any hon. Member used that un-Parliamentary expression, it is his duty to withdraw it.

Mr. Wyatt

What is one to do in these circumstances—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I have a point of order to put to you. Sir. The Secretary of State said that the Labour Government never made a decision to go ahead with the British rifle. That, Sir, is a lie, and what am I to call it?

Mr. Speaker

I am not concerned with the facts of this dispute. I am concerned only with the language used in this House, and the word "lie" is an un-Parliamentary expression. If the hon. Member used it, I ask him to withdraw it.

Mr. Wyatt

May I withdraw that expression and substitute "It is 100 per cent, inaccurate"?

Mr. Head

I would follow that by saying that if my predecessor as Secretary of State for War wishes to reaffirm that his Government gave orders to go into active production, will he say so now?

Mr. Strachey rose

—

Mr. Speaker

I would call the attention of the House to the fact that we have only reached Question No. 17.

Mr. Wigg

As my right hon. Friend is directly challenged, surely it is in accordance with the traditions of the House—

Mr. Speaker

I did not say that I was not going to call the right hon. Gentleman. I was on my own feet when he rose.

Mr. Strachey

The position is well known to the House.

Mr. Nabarro

Question.

Mr. Strachey

The position is well known to the House. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the late Government decided upon the British rifle; made all plans to go into the production of that rifle, and that those plans would long ago have been carried out if the Labour Government had remained in office?

Mr. Head

I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman—whose memory seems to have failed him—that although this was a project at the time, it was put into the "pending" tray because of the objections raised by the Opposition, especially by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Mr. Callaghan

Apart from the Secretary of State trying to foist his own failures upon my right hon. Friend, will he please tell us why it is that a year after he said that the Government were going into production of their rifle—which they claim they have standardised—it is still not in production?

Mr. Head

It is because at the time of the decision we knew that troop trials would take at least a year.