HC Deb 09 February 1955 vol 536 cc1868-74
7. Mr. de Freitas

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when he expects the Hunter aircraft in the Royal Air Force to be modified to prevent the engines stalling in certain circumstances when the guns are fired.

Mr. Ward

It is not possible to give a precise forecast. Plans must be translated into engineering details and parts produced and fitted. These processes are being pursued with all possible speed.

Mr. de Freitas

Will the Under-Secretary promise us that the Air Ministry will tolerate no delay at the manufacturers or Ministry of Supply now that they know in general what is wrong and that it can be cured? Will they press on with it?

Mr. Ward

Yes, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are just as keen to get these modifications introduced as he is.

Mr. Wigg

Does that apply to both the Avon and Sapphire jets, or only to the Avon?

Mr. Ward

It applies to a lesser extent to the Sapphire.

8. Mr. de Freitas

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether arrangements have now been made so that in future the operational commands of the Royal Air Force will be in closer touch with the designers and manufacturers of new aircraft than they were in the case of the Hunter.

Mr. Ward

There was no lack of cooperation between Fighter Command and Hawkers during the development of the Hunter. As already announced, we are now ordering larger numbers of pre-production aircraft, and this will give squadron pilots better opportunities to fly new aircraft during their development than has been possible with the few prototypes hitherto available.

Mr. de Freitas

Apart from the prototypes, is the Under-Secretary satisfied that the machinery by which the operational command is kept in touch with the manufacturers over design and development is adequate, and will be so in the future?

Mr. Ward

Yes, one of the steps we have taken recently is to appoint a liaison officer from the operational command complete with a crew in the case of multi-seater aircraft. They are appointed to the firm and they are kept closely in touch with the work at all its stages.

Mr. Wyatt

Is the Under-Secretary aware that, in the Air Estimates debate last year, he said: More than half our regular day fighter force will consist of British swept-wing fighters by this time next year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March, 1954; Vol. 524, c. 1365.] He must have had full knowledge of all the programme with regard to the Hunter and Swift then, so does not that dispose completely of his rather craven charge that the defects and delays are due to the late Government and not to him, as he made that statement last year with full knowledge of the facts?

Mr. Ward

The whole of this matter will be dealt with, as the lion. Gentleman knows, in a White Paper which will be produced shortly. I ask the hon. Gentleman to wait until that comes out and then study it closely.

Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing

Would my hon. Friend say whether, if more prototypes had been ordered when the new sweptwing fighters were ordered, these teething troubles would not have been brought to light much sooner, and therefore the aircraft would have been in operational use much sooner, and does not the responsibility for the small number of prototypes rest with the previous Government?

Mr. Ward

There again, I ask my hon. Friend to wait for the White Paper, where he will find all these matters fully dealt with.

12. Mr. Wigg

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether he now proposes to authorise the purchase of Swift aircraft for use in the Royal Air Force; and if he will make a statement.

20. Mr. Wyatt

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when he expects the Swift fighter to be in service with the Royal Air Force and 100 per cent. operationally reliable.

Mr. Ward

I think this is a matter which could be better dealt with in the context of the White Paper on Aircraft Supply.

Mr. Wigg

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough not to deceive the House any longer?

Hon. Members

Oh.

Mr. Speaker

Order, order. The hon. Member should not suggest that another hon. Member of this House is deceiving anyone.

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Mr. Wigg

I did not say that the hon. Gentleman was wilfully deceiving the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I will withdraw nothing. The hon. Gentleman, through no fault—[Interruption.] I have no intention whatever of asserting that the hon. Gentleman is wilfully deceiving the House, but I do say that he is deceiving the House. The House is being deceived on this issue. This aircraft is completely unsatisfactory.

Mr. Speaker

Order, order. That is not good enough. The hon. Member ought to know that to charge another hon. Member with deceit carries with it the implication that it has been done wilfully.

Mr. Wigg

I am very anxious, Mr. Speaker, to meet your Ruling, but unless you order me to withdraw, I will not withdraw.

Hon. Members

Withdraw.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Member really ought to withdraw that expression. Perhaps he did not realise when he was using the word what its implication was, but I have to keep order in this House.

Mr. Wigg

I am willing, and I accept your Ruling, Sir, in so far as I cast any aspersion on the hon. Gentleman, but I assert that in fact the House and the country are being deceived on this issue, and I ask the hon. Gentleman to tell us—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The hon. Gentleman can settle it himself. He knows perfectly well that this aircraft is unsatisfactory and is to be withdrawn. Why does he not say so?

Mr. Ward

I can assure the hon. Gentleman—and I think the House knows me well enough by now to realise it—that I am not deceiving the House in any way. All I ask the House to accept is my statement that at this point I am not in a position to make an announcement on this subject, but that the White Paper is being produced within the next few days and there will then be ample opposition—[Laughter.]—ample opportunity to study the White Paper and discuss it fully.

Mr. Wyatt

Is the Minister aware that in the Air Estimates debate in 1953, two years ago, he said: We intend to form our first squadrons of Swifts towards the end of the year …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th March, 1953; Vol. 512, c. 1515.] Further, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Defence in the debate on defence last year said, "The first Swifts are in squadron service," and since neither of those statements is true, is it not the case that the Government have misled the House and the country?

Mr. Ward

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the thoroughness of his homework, but he knows perfectly well that there is a squadron of Swifts.

Mr. Wyatt

In operation?

Mr. Ward

In service with the Royal Air Force, and there was when that statement was made.

Mr. Wyatt

Yes, but in operation?

14. Mr. Wigg

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the date on which it was decided to fit externally-hung link and cartridge baskets to Hunter Hawker aircraft; and the percentage of these aircraft in use by the Royal Air Force which have been so modified.

Mr. Ward

The containers to which the hon. Member presumably refers are designed to collect spent links. It was decided in November, 1954, that these devices should be incorporated. They will be fitted as they become available. They eliminate any risk that the aircraft will be damaged by spent links in flight and have been so designed that they will not materially affect the performance of the aircraft.

Mr. Wigg

How many of these aircraft have so far been fitted with these baskets? Have any been fitted?

Mr. Ward

I covered that point in my original answer. I said that they would be fitted when they became available.

Mr. Wigg

I did not ask when; I asked how many?

Dr. R. Bennett

May I ask my hon. Friend if he will point out to the hon. Gentleman that the aircraft in which he is taking such a sudden interest is not the Hunter Hawker and not the headline hunter, but the Hawker Hunter?

Mr. Wigg

I am quite willing to take note of that information if the Under-Secretary will tell us how many Hunter Hawkers or Hawker Hunters are fitted with this basket.

Mr. Ward

I was trying to make it clear that none of these devices was so far available.

15. Mr. Wigg

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air the date on which it was decided that the tail of the Hunter Hawker must be redesigned; and the percentage of these aircraft at present in use by the Royal Air Force which have been so modified.

Mr. Ward

There has been no decision to redesign the tail of the Hunter. We are considering whether an all-moving tail might be an advantage on the later developments of the Hunter, but this does not affect aircraft in use or at present being delivered.

Mr. Wigg

Are we now to understand that the Hunter's guns do not fire, that it is not fitted with a basket to collect the links and that the tail is not satisfactory, but that the aircraft is in operation?

Mr. Ward

No, I must correct all that. The guns are perfectly capable of firing, but under certain flight conditions and at certain heights the engine is apt to get surge when the guns are kept firing for a long time. They are perfectly able to fire now. This modification is necessary to avoid damage to the aircraft, but, at the worst, it only makes a few dents in it and it can still be flown perfectly easily. As to the point about the baskets, I think I have already dealt with that in my answer.

18. Mr. Wyatt

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air when he expects the Victor, Valiant, and Vulcan bombers to be in service with the Royal Air Force and capable of operational flight.

Mr. Ward

The first operational squadron in the Royal Air Force is at the moment being re-equipped with Valiants. We hope that next year we shall have Victors and Vulcans in service as well.

Mr. Wyatt

Is not the Minister aware that he said in the debate on the last Air Estimates that the Valiant will be in squadron service in 1954, and it is now 1955? Is it not the case that we have as much delay and inefficiency in the production of bombers as we have in the production of fighter aircraft?

Mr. Ward

My recollection, although I am prepared to be corrected if I am wrong, is that I said "in the coming financial year." The financial year is not yet over.

Mr. Wyatt

The hon. Gentleman said 1954.

Mr. Ward

The financial year is not yet over and Valiants are being delivered now. If the hon. Gentleman checks my speech, he will find that I said "in the coming financial year."

Mr. Wigg

Is it not a fact that the hon. Gentleman had a Question down from me, which he has carefully passed on to the Ministry of Supply, in which I asked him to say what was wrong with the Valiant's wings and ailerons? Am I to take it that those are all right?

Mr. Ward

I passed the Question to the Minister of Supply because it is a Ministry of Supply matter. I am not aware of any redesign of the wings.

Mr. Wigg

Or the ailerons?

Mr. Ward

I know of some modification to the ailerons, and that is being carried out at the present time.

19. Mr. Wyatt

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Air what types of long-range bomber, capable of operational flight, are in service with the Royal Air Force; and in what numbers.

Mr. Ward

Apart from the squadron of Valiants now forming, our bomber squadrons are at the moment equipped with Lincolns and Canberras. It would not be in the public interest for me to give numbers.

Mr. Wyatt

Is it not the case that we now have no modern fighter aircraft to defend us and we have only one squadron of Valiants as medium bombers with which to launch an attack?

Mr. Ward

As I have said, the Valiants are coming in now and we hope to have Victors and Vulcans next year. Meanwhile, we have excellent aeroplanes in the Lincoln and the Canberra.

Air Commodore Harvey

Will my hon. Friend not agree that if the party opposite had not lost their heads when the Korean war started and ordered so many Canberra bombers, half of which I believe had to be cancelled, many of these other types would now be in use?

Mr. Wigg

Whether the Opposition lost their heads or not has nothing to do with the fact that the tail dropped off a Victor last year.