HC Deb 14 December 1955 vol 547 cc1174-81
24. Mrs. Castle

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the concern at the behaviour of the police as revealed by the case of Kamau Kichina, he will now publish the recommendations for the reorganisation of the Kenya police which were put forward by Colonel Young in his report to the Governor on his resignation.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I have nothing to add to the statement I made on 2nd February about Colonel Young's resignation, and the remarks I made in the debate on 16th February.

Mrs. Castle

But is it not a fact that Colonel Young resigned because he believed that abuses in Kenya would never be stopped until the police were made independent of the Administration? Was not his point of view fully justified by the case of Kamau Kichina when no fewer than three administrative officers were involved, one of them a regular member of the Service who encouraged the maltreatment of Kamau Kichina by dragging him before a village meeting and inciting the villagers to violence against him? Does this not once again emphasise the need for the reforms which Colonel Young demanded and which have been suppressed?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

Colonel Young and I agreed on a statement issued at the time, and I have nothing to add to it. In regard to the most distressing Kamau Kichina case, I made a statement on 26th October which set out the steps taken to prevent a recurrence. To the hon. Lady may I say that, in that visit to Kenya which she so recently paid, she said to one of the senior officers of the Kenya Government that as it was difficult to get information in Parliament from time to time the only thing to do was to hit out wildly and hope that some blows would strike their mark. I suggest that that is not a very proper line.

Mr. J. Griffiths

May I ask the Secretary of State whether he thinks it in accordance with the position of a Minister to repeat an unconfirmed statement made by somebody without inquiry? Did he take the opportunity of putting that statement to my hon. Friend before making it in the House?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

No, nor as far as I know did the hon. Lady check up with the Attorney-General, or anybody else in Kenya, the articles she wrote in the Daily Mirror?

Mrs. Castle

Is the Colonial Secretary not aware that he is quoting from private talks which I had with the Attorney-General with whom I spent no less than eight hours going into these facts? I told the Attorney-General that I was satisfied as a result of my inquiries made in Kenya that the trouble with this case did not lie with his Department and I was prepared to say so in Parliament, and I say it now. I also said to him that it was so difficult to get replies from the Colonial Secretary that it was difficult to establish where the trouble lay. I am now satisfied that the trouble lies in the administrative service and its control over the police. Everything that has happened since has justified Colonel Young in his demands.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The hon. Lady used very strong language herself.

Mr. Brockway

It is absolutely scandalous to repeat a private conversation.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

It led to the greatest distress—

Mr. Brockway

Absolutely scandalous quoting a private conversation.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

—in Kenya.

Mr. Brockway

Absolutely scandalous.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must remind the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) that it is very disorderly to interrupt whilst sitting in his seat.

Mr. Brockway

May I rise to a point of order? Is it not contrary to all the custom of this House for a member of the Government to quote a private conversation with a civil servant in the Colony and make an accusation of that kind against my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)?

Mr. Speaker

There is nothing in the practice of the House which governs the matter, but I hope this subject will be discussed with moderation on both sides.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The hon. Lady said something which it is essential to answer. The courts and the Administration are independent and if the hon. Lady suggests that they are not, that is just one of those wild statements which I say she is most unwise to make.

Mr. Dugdale

May we take it that it is now the policy of the Colonial Office that all conversations which any Members have with officials of the Colonial Office are to be made public? May we know that so that none of us may dare to have such conversations in the future? Is that the policy?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think the right hon. Gentleman, with his own experience of administration, knows that if a service has been treated to some reflections on it which are deeply resented by large numbers of people, they are entitled to protect their service and to draw attention to wild charges when they are made, particularly as Ministers have not the privilege of being able to write regular articles for the Daily Mirror.

Mr. Brockway

General Franco.

Mr. Paget

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us which of these statements is wild? Is it not a fact that, unlike in this country, the police in Kenya are responsible to the Administration and not to the law?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The hon. and learned Gentleman knows very well that at the end of October, when we dealt with the Kamau case in a calm atmosphere, there was no disagreement about it. It was made quite plain what steps were being taken and there was no disagreement about the general repugnance with which the whole House regretted what had happened. There was agreement also on the steps being taken to prevent its recurrence. I suggest that in the particular problem of Kenya, rather than rake over things which have gone wrong, it would be helpful to concentrate on the brighter future which could lie ahead.

Mr. Griffiths

May I ask the Colonial Secretary whether he will again consider the action which he has taken this afternoon—to make in this House, without prior consultation with the hon. Member concerned, a report of a private conversation which she had or is alleged to have had with an officer in the Colonial Service? If that is to become the practice, my view is that in the long run it will be a very grave disadvantage and not an advantage to everybody concerned in the Colony.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

If we were able to conduct our discussions solely on the Floor of the House, that might well be true, but unfortunately in this problem a very large public has been brought in and plied with monstrous slanders in Kenya, and I feel it my duty to draw attention to the sort of manner in which some of these slanders are born.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is it in order for the Minister to say that another Member of the House of Commons has been guilty of monstrous slanders?

Mr. Speaker

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the public had been treated to a number of monstrous slanders. That is a general statement.

Mrs. Castle

On a point of order. The Colonial Secretary has accused me in my articles in the Daily Mirror of spreading slanders against the Attorney-General which justified his reply. [Laughter.] May I claim your protection, Mr. Speaker? I went out of my way in my articles in the Daily Mirror to explain that I had talked to the Attorney-General and that I was satisfied that he was as anxious as I was to see that justice was done. If I liked to quote in the House some of the private conversations and comments which Government servants made to me, it would make the Colonial Secretary's hair stand on end.

Mr. Speaker

I think we cannot carry the matter further at this stage.

Mrs. Castle

May I ask the Colonial Secretary for a reply?

Hon. Members

Hear, hear.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I must insist on order in this matter. I regret these disturbances. If the hon. Lady wishes to pursue the matter and gives notice that she will raise it on the Adjournment, we might be able to get on with it, but I do not think we can do so at Question Time when other hon. Members have Questions on the Order Paper.

Mrs. Castle

On a point of order. I have already asked you, Mr. Speaker, for an opportunity on Adjournment day, before the House rises, to raise this matter. I hope you will give me the opportunity.

Mr. Speaker

I will certainly look into the matter, but I never consider these matters until I get the complete list, which will be tomorrow. I will look at it then.

Mr. Paget

Further to that point of Order.

Mr. Speaker

There is no point of Order before the House.

Mr. Paget

With great respect, the point of order which I should have thought was before the House was whether an accusation that somebody has made gross slanders is an accusation which is in order. The Minister has been asked what the slanders were and he has dodged the answer. He has been asked, "What do you say the hon. Lady has said which is not true?" He has dodged the answer. In those circumstances, as a matter of order, is he not obliged to withdraw the statement?

Mr. Speaker

I have heard nothing said which demands a withdrawal. I gather that there is a dispute as to the facts of what was said. I think that sort of question would be much better debated on the Adjournment. We cannot deal with it now.

38. Mrs. Castle

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the medical evidence advanced as to the cause of death of Kamau Kichina which led to the alteration of the charge against the accused from one of murder to that of causing grievous bodily harm.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The reason why the magistrate took the view that committal for trial on a charge of murder or manslaughter could not be justified was that the medical witness before him stated that it was impossible to be explicit as to the exact cause of death and that he could not say absolutely that the deceased did not die from any natural cause.

Mrs. Castle

Is it not a fact that the medical witness, Dr. Brown, also said in court that he had not made as careful an examination of Kamau Kichina's injuries as otherwise he would have made because of a misleading statement made to him by the regular administrative officer, Mr. Richmond, as to the state of Kamau Kichina's health the day before? Could the Colonial Secretary tell us, in view of that serious fact, what action has been taken against that administrative officer?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I have no information whatsoever to support that statement of the hon. Lady. As the hon. Lady knows, whatever she may say in public about me or I may say about her, we have a number of talks about colonial matters. I shall certainly show her the only report I have. I will make sure—I am fairly sure it is—whether it is complete or not.

Mrs. Castle

May I ask the Colonial Secretary if he is not aware—

Mr. Alport rose

—

Hon. Members

Sit down.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Who is rising to a point of order?

Mr. Alport

I am rising to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a matter which relates very closely to a previous Question which has been referred to as one which is to be raised in an Adjournment Motion before Christmas. [HON.MEMBERS: "No."] I want to ask whether it is in order to continue with questions on this subject?

Mr. Speaker

I do not know when notice was given, or who gave notice.

Mr. Alport

I understood that it was the hon. Lady asking the Question.

Mrs. Castle

Is not the Colonial Secretary aware that if he would do as I did, go and study the verbatim court records of this case—copies of which I have before me, because I took the trouble to take them down in the Registry of the Supreme Court in Nairobi—

Mr. Alport rose

—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I did not understand that this matter was to be raised. I understood the hon. Lady to tell me that she was going to ask for an Adjournment debate on the other Question about which there was a dispute.

Mrs. Castle

That is right, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

I may be wrong, but that does not seem to be the same Question as the one with which we are dealing now. I think the hon. Lady should finish asking her Question.

Mrs. Castle

In those court records the evidence of Dr. Brown to the effect which I have just given was stated quite clearly and was repeated by the magistrate in his summing-up. Should not the Colonial Secretary take a little more trouble to find the facts before he answers Questions so blithely?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

All I would say to the hon. Lady is that she knows full well that I am always ready to listen to anything she has to say. If she brings back documents which she believes are authentic and shows them to me, I think that would be better than to make charges affecting the professional conduct and morality of individuals in a privileged House of Commons where they can take no action.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Since the right hon. Gentleman knows that there is considerable concern about one fact in this case—that the charge was reduced, and was reduced because medical evidence was submitted—would he not consider making available to the whole House the medical evidence upon which a decision was based?

Mrs. Castle

The court records.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The right hon. Member knows perfectly well that this case has distressed us all, I think, equally. I will certainly look into what he has said, without giving an undertaking, because I do not know what precedents or difficulties might be involved.

Dame Irene Ward

Is my right hon. Friend aware with what contempt responsible public opinion in Kenya will regard the conduct of the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)?

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps it might be seasonable if I were to remind the House that we are approaching Christmas, the season of good will. I hope we shall get through these Questions with fewer of these altercations.