HC Deb 26 October 1954 vol 531 cc1864-89
Mr. Willey

I beg to move, in page 6, line 5, to leave out "may," and to insert "shall."

We have been itching—perhaps I should say, most anxious—to move an Amendment in these terms. We have had similar Amendments on the Notice Paper, but your predecessor in the Chair, Mr. Thomas, has not selected them, suggesting that the word "may" be taken out and that the word "shall" inserted.

We feel strongly that we must make the carrying out of the obligations under the Bill mandatory upon the Government. We have got along very well so far with them, and I do not want to upset the atmosphere, but we cannot be satisfied that the Government will use their utmost endeavours to carry out the duties and obligations which are placed upon them by the Bill. We have had experience of the behaviour of the Government with regard to regulations. I do not want to rake up old fires, but that was not a very happy experience. We felt that the Government withdrew largely from their original good intentions, and that if it had not been for the fact that the Bill had to go through its Committee stage we might not have secured the regulations which are now in draft form.

What assurances have we that once the Bill becomes an Act, and if the Government succeed in their intentions, the only powers we shall have will not be to move an annulment of the regulations? While we say that the action taken in this regard should be by regulation, we should make it an obligation on Ministers to make provision by way of regulation. We should define in Clause 6 the matters upon which Ministers should make regulations. After the experience which Ministers' Departments have had over the past few months, I should have thought they would welcome mandatory instructions from the House of Commons. They could then say to the people whom they find it so difficult to stand up to, "Parliament has decided that this is what we shall do."

I have always appreciated the Parliamentary Secretary's interest in these matters, and I should think that he would be anxious to accept the Amendment. Parliament should say that these are the matters about which it requires the Minister to make regulations. We accept the general argument that the form of these regulations will depend on the circumstances obtaining at the time, but there should be no question of the Minister saying that this is only a matter of "may" Parliament, after all, has had time to consider this, and it should say that it believes that under these headings regulations shall be provided.

I hope that the Minister will allow the Parliamentary Secretary to seize this lifeline so that when this Bill becomes an Act the Minister and the Department can say to those people of whom, apparently, they are most apprehensive and afraid, that it is Parliament which, in the public interest, has decided that we shall have regulations about these matters which are apparently essential to all questions relating to the hygiene of the country.

Mr. F. Blackburn (Stalybridge and Hyde)

I wish to support this Amendment. If we take the usually accepted meaning of the word "may," this Clause as it stands could, to put it no higher, have no value because the Government could just please themselves whether or not they produced these regulations. In any case, even if we alter it to the word "shall," the position is not very much better because the Government still have a get-out in the words as appear to them to be expedient. When, on a previous Bill, I raised the question of the words "may" and "shall," I was informed that in Parliamentary language "may" meant "shall." Surely that is nonsense. Surely, in a Parliamentary Bill we should adhere to the same interpretation of the English language as does everybody else. Therefore, if it is the accepted view of the Government that "may" means "shall," let us say "shall" and say exactly what we mean. If "may" does not mean "shall," then it is very important that we should alter the word "may" to "shall" so that the Government shall have no excuse for not carrying out the intentions of themselves and of the House.

Dr. Broughton

The purpose of this Clause is obviously to give the Minister powers to make regulations applicable to food premises in order to raise the standard of hygiene of the catering industry and of the food manufacturing trade. It is merely an enabling Clause, and the legislation becomes valueless unless it is followed by regulations. The details that have to be specified in the regulations are too numerous to be included in the Bill. Therefore, we must have regulations.

I recollect the occasion in February, 1951, when the House first debated this subject of food hygiene. At the end of a day of interesting discussion, the Motion which I was privileged to move was accepted by the House without a Division. That showed the feeling of hon. Members on this important subject. I am sure that hon. and right hon. Members on both sides still have the same amount of interest in this matter.

Since then, there has been a great deal of propaganda throughout the country. People have become more interested in hygiene. There is, generally speaking, a desire that this Bill should be brought into operation, and should become effective. As far as the clean handling of food is concerned, that can only be done by a Minister making regulations.

The Minister has very kindly let us see his draft regulations and we can assume that they will be issued in due course. I suggest, however, that these regulations will need to be revised from time to time, and future Ministers may be not just as energetic and interested as the present ones. We should, therefore, make it absolutely compulsory on Ministers to make these regulations. The National Caterers' Federation has accepted the need for them. It has gone so far as to draw up proposals which it thinks would be suitable for the Minister to bring into line with his own ideas.

We must also remember that when the subject of food hygiene came to the fore in this country, and clean food guilds were formed, one of the first things they did was to draw up their own codes of practice. I am very pleased to see the hon. and gallant Member for Wembley, North (Wing Commander Bullus) in his place, because he represents a constituency where, for some time, there has been a clean food guild which has done very good work and has excellent regulations of its own. I mention that in order to stress the need for these regulations. They are absolutely essential. Without them I think we might as well scrap the Bill. That being so, we should alter the word "may" to "shall" so that there shall be no doubt whatsoever that the regulations will be made.

Mr. G. Darling

During the Second Reading of the Bill there was, to put it lightly, some confusion about the manner in which the Ministry of Food was seeking the opinion and advice of the trade bodies concerned with regulations, codes of quality, and so on. During that debate the Parliamentary Secretary made it perfectly clear that there would be regulations; that the important matters would be placed in regulations, and that the less important issues and those difficult to put into regulations would go into voluntary codes of practice.

We have accepted that situation. Indeed, the regulations now proposed by the Ministry of Food—with a few Amendments—are, from our point of view, very satisfactory. The Parliamentary Secretary having made it perfectly clear that there would be regulations, we must insist that he carries out the undertaking, so to speak, which he gave; that in this Bill there will be regulations to cover the important matters which we think ought to be enforced.

We appreciate that we shall never get clean food and the clean handling of food merely by regulation. We must have a campaign of education as well, but, unless we have the minimum regulations in the Act—and have them enforced—it would be quite impossible to get any good effect from educational activities, because the things about which we are educating people will not be carried out.

It is not sufficient for the Minister to have permissive powers. We must lay upon the Ministry responsible for the administration of the Act the obligation to see that the regulations which we have been discussing, which are set out partly in Clause 6 and which will be completely in Clause 6 when our Amendments are accepted, are enforced as the minimum which will be required for a clean food Bill.

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Amory

I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Dr. Broughton) that regulations are essential, and I should like to repeat that it is our definite intention to introduce regulations. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have circulated drafts.

The idea has always been accepted in the House that it is bad law to make the power to make regulations mandatory, unless the regulations are specified exactly and in complete detail. Otherwise there is this danger. What limit is there to what the Minister is expected to do? When can it be said that he has discharged his liability? How many regulations must he make? What kind of regulations? Suppose the Minister made a regulation because he had to, and then wanted to revoke it?

The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) put his finger on the important point when he said that even if the word "shall" was introduced, should we be very much further? I do not think we should, because it seems to me that the important words are in the first line of Clause 6: The Ministers may make such regulations as appear to them to be expedient …. Those words are surely the governing consideration as to what kind of regulations are likely to result. I feel that in the circumstances it must be right to give the Minister discretion to decide whether he makes regulations, what regulations he makes and when he makes them, unless they are specified exactly in the Bill. I repeat that in this case there is no question that we intend to make regulations.

Mr. Willey

We are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his assurance. but we still remain not completely satisfied

I appreciate the point he has made about subsection (1), but our endeavours to amend subsection (1) cannot be argued because our Amendments have not been selected. We are, therefore, confined to the matter of the regulations which the Minister thinks expedient to introduce.

We still think that so far as those regulations go, this subsection provides the essential skeleton for them. It says that Parliament has now decided that, while discretion lies with the Minister in deciding what form the regulations may take, the regulations shall provide for these matters which we specify in subsection (2). Owing to our somewhat unfortunate experience about these regulations, I feel that I must recommend my hon. Friends to divide on this Amendment.

Question put, "That 'may' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 228; Noes, 213.

Division No. 218.] AYES [9.5 p.m.
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J.
Alport, C. J. M. Duthie, W. S. Hurd, A. R.
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Erroll, F. J. Hutchison, James (Sootstown)
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Fell, A. Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Fin lay, Graeme Iremonger, T. L.
Astor, Hon. J. J. Fisher, Nigel Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr J. M Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Baldwin, A. E. Fletcher-Cooke, C. Keeling, Sir Edward
Banks, Col. C. Ford, Mrs. Patricia Kerby, Capt. H. B.
Barber, Anthony Fort, R. Kerr, H. W.
Barlow, Sir John Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Lambert, Hon. G.
Baxter, Sir Beverley Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (pollok) Langford-Holt, J. A.
Bennett. Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Leather, E. H. C.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Garner-Evans, E. H. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Birch, Nigel Glover, D. Legh, Hon. Peter (Peterfield)
Bishop, F. P. Godber, J. B. Lindsay, Martin
Black, C. W. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A Linstead, Sir H. N.
Boothby, Sir R. J. G. Gower, H. R. Llewellyn, D. T.
Bossom, Sir A. C. Graham, Sir Fergus Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Bowen, E. R. Gridley, Sir Arnold Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Longden, Gilbert
Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Brooman-White, R. C. Hall, John (Wycombe) Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)
Browne, Jack (Govan) Hare, Hon. J. H. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) MaCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.
Bullard, D. G. Harris, Reader (Heston) Macdonald, Sir Peter
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) McKibbin, A. J.
Burden, F. F. A. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Butcher, Sir Herbert Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Campbell, Sir David Heath, Edward Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)
Gary, Sir Robert Higgs, J. M. C. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Hill, Dr Charles (Luton) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hinchingbrooke, viscount Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Cole, Norman Hirst, Geoffrey Maitland, Cmdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Colegate, W. A. Holland-Martin, C. J. Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Holt, A. F. Marlowe, A. A. H.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Hope, Lord John Marples, A. E.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Maude, Angus
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Horobin, I. M. Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C
Crouch, R. F. Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Medlicott, Brig. F.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Mellor, Sir John
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Molson, A. H. E.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Moore, Sir Thomas
Doughty, C. J. A. Hughes-Hallet, Vice-Admiral J Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Nabarro, G. D. N. Renton, D. L. M. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Neave, Airey Ridsdale, J. E. Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)
Nicholls, Harmar Robertson, Sir David Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth)
Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.
Nield, Basil (Chester) Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Tilney, John
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. Roper, Sir Harold Turner, H. F. L.
Nugent, G. R. H. Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Turton, R. H.
Oakshott, H. D. Russell, R. S. Tweedsmuir, Lady
Odey, G. W. Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas Vane, W. M. F.
O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Scott, R. Donald Vosper, D. F.
Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. Wade, D. W.
Page, R. G. Shepherd, William Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Partridge, E. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Walker-Smith, D. C.
Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Wall, Major Patrick
Perkins, Sir Robert Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Soames, Capt, C. Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Peyton, J. W. W. Spearman, A. C. M Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Pickthorn, K. W. M. Speir, R. M. Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster).
Pitman, I. J. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Wellwood, W.
Pitt, Miss E. M. Stevens, Geoffrey Williams, Rt Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Powell, J. Enoch Steward, W. A (Woolwich, W.) Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Storey, S. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Prefumo, J. D. Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Wills, G.
Raikes, Sir Victor Studholme, H. G. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Ramsden, J. E. Summers, G. S. Wood, Hon. R.
Rayner, Brig. R. Sutcliffe, Sir Harold
Redmayne, M. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Remnant, Hon. P. Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Sir Cedric Drewe and Mr. Kaberry.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Foot, M. M. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Forman, J. C. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Awbery, S. S. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Logan, D. C.
Balfour, A. Gibson, C. W. MacColl, J. E.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. McGhee, H. G.
Bartley, P. Greenwood, Anthony McInnes, J.
Beattie, J. Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R McKay, John (Wallsend)
Bellanger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Grey, C. F. McLeavy, F.
Bence, C. R. Griffiths, David (Bother Valley) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Blackburn, F. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Blenkinsop, A. Hale, Leslie Mann, Mrs. Jean
Boardman, H. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Manuel, A. C.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Bowden, H. W. Hamilton, W. W. Mason, Roy
Bowles, F. G Hannan, W. Mellish, R. J.
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Hardy, E. A. Messer, Sir F.
Brockway, A. F. Hargreaves, A. Mitchison, G. R.
Brook, Dryden (Halifa[...]x) Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Monslow, W.
Broughton Dr. A. D. D. Hastings, S. Moody, A. S.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Hayman, F. H. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.) Morley, R.
Burke, W. A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)
Burton, Miss F. E. Herbison, Miss M. Mort, D. L.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Hewitson, Capt. M. Moyle, A.
Callaghan, L. J. Hobson, C. R. Mulley, F. W.
Carmichael, J. Holman, P. Murray, J. D.
Champion, A. J. Holmes, Horace Nally, W.
Chapman, W. D. Houghton, Douglas Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Chetwynd, G. R. Hoy, J. H. Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.
Clunie, J. Hubbard, T. F. O'Brien, T.
Collick, P. H. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Oldfield, W. H.
Collins, V, J. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Oliver, G. H.
Cove, W. G. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Oswald, T.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hynd, H. (Accrington) Padley, W. E.
Crossman, R. H. S. Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Daines, P. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Pannell, Charles
Darling, George (Hillsborough) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Pargiter, G. A.
Davies, Harold (Leek) Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Parker, J.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Jeger, George (Goole) Paton, J.
de Freitas, Geoffrey Jeger, Mrs. Lena Peart, T. F.
Deer, G. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Plummer, Sir Lestie
Delargy, H. J. Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech Popplewell, E.
Dodds, N. N. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Porter, G.
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Keenan, W. Proctor, W. T.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Kenyon, C. Pryde, D. J.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W Rankin, John
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) King, Dr H. M. Reeves, J.
Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Kinley, J. Reid, Thomas (Swindon)
Fienburgh, W. Lawson, G. M. Reid, William (Camlachie)
Finch, H. J. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Rhodes, H.
Richards, R. Stross, Dr. Barnett Wheeldon, W. E.
Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. White, Mrs. Eirene (E, Flint)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Swingler, S. T. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Sylvester, G. O. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Wilkins, W. A.
Ross, William Taylor, John (West Lothian) Willey, F. T.
Shackleton, E. A. A. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Williams, David (Neath)
Short, E. W. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Shurmer, P. L. E. Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)
Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Timmons, J. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Tomney, F. Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Usborne, H. C Willis, E. G.
Skeffington, A. M. Viant, S. P. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent) Wallace, H. W, Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) Warbey, W. N. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) Watkins, T. E. Yates, V. F.
Sorensen, R. W. Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Sparks, J. A. Weitzman, D.
Steele, T. Wells, Percy (Faversham) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) West, D. G. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Arthur Allen.

9.15 p.m.

Dr. Broughton

I beg to move, in page 6, line 6, after "layout," to insert "drainage."

When I moved an Amendment earlier the Parliamentary Secretary knew perfectly well that I was employing probing tactics, because I wanted to hear his opinion on the subject which I raised. I failed in my purpose, because he gave such a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer. In moving this Amendment I am not probing. I am hoping that the Minister will give careful consideration to it and that it will be accepted.

First, I am asking the Minister to consider the inclusion of drainage among the requirements to be imposed for food premises. The drainage of premises is sufficiently important to warrant inclusion in the Bill. He has already included construction and layout. The flow from lavatories, wash basins and sinks in properly constructed pipes to a sewer or, in country districts, to a cesspool is of great importance for hygiene, especially in food premises. I suggest that the inclusion of drainage is just as important as the inclusion of ventilation and lighting. When we are considering the drainage of premises we should also bear in mind the question of rain water falling on roofs and pavements, which should be carried away from the buildings. With imperfect drainage there is a danger of wetness and of fouling close to food.

My Amendment to line 8 seeks to insert "water supply" and I think that the inclusion of water supply among requirements for food premises is necessary because of its great importance. There must be an adequate supply of clean water for human consumption, for wash- ing food, for washing pots, pans and cutlery, for washing people's hands, for washing premises and for flushing lavatories. Food traders cannot operate without clean water, and it is so important that it should be provided in abundance that I suggest that it is worthy of inclusion among the other provisions in the Bill.

Mr. Amory

I agree with what the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Dr. Broughton) said. These are important things. I shall be glad to accept the Amendment and the further one in his name, to line 8.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: in page 6, line 8. after "lighting," insert "water supply."—[Dr. Broughton.]

Amendment proposed: in page 6, line 11, after "cleansed," to insert: and in which refuse is disposed of or stored." —[Dr. Broughton.]

Mr. Amory

I was not clear that this Amendment had been already proposed. It is acceptable to us with the substitution of "or" instead of "and" The word "and" does not seem to fit. If the hon. Member is willing to modify his Amendment to include "or" instead of "and" and you are willing to accept, Sir Charles, that would be acceptable to me.

Amendment agreed to.

The Chairman

The next Amendment selected, in page 6, line 14, after "premises," insert "the disposal of refuse" can be considered with the following two, in line 15.

Dr. Broughton

I beg to move, in page 6, line 14, after "premises," to insert "the disposal of refuse."

I suggest to the Minister that this should be included in the Bill which should state that the Minister may make regulations for the disposal of refuse. The disposal of refuse is very important in catering establishments. If refuse is not properly disposed of it is apt to form a breeding ground for flies and the habits of flies are really disgusting. They are conveyors of food poisoning and other diseases. Refuse can also be used as food by mice and rats. If this provision were included the Minister would have to make regulations about the disposal of refuse, stating the number of dustbins needed and regulations about lids of dustbins being properly fitted and any other points which may come to his mind in connection with this matter.

Mr. Donald Chapman (Birmingham, Northfield)

I wish to refer to the Amendment standing in my name, in line 15, after "of," to insert "clothing."

I happen to own an hotel and because of this experience I looked with some interest at this Clause. It does not mention any regulations governing clothing and the cleanliness of clothing. I am surprised at that because in the draft regulations, circulated prior to the Bill, clothing was particularly mentioned. It is omitted from the Bill, that is an omission which could easily be put right.

In Britain, we are much too tolerant of dirty, food-bespattered clothes of people serving food. A couple of weeks ago on British Railways, which are doing so much to improve this part of our catering services, a man came to serve me and, so to speak, I could have had a couple of meals off his waistcoat. It had become so dirty with food that I was on the point of calling the chief conductor to ask that something should be done about it. I am angry for losing my courage and not doing so. Someone must make these complaints. I am sure that the regulations ought to include rules about the actual cleanliness of the clothing of people who are serving.

This brings me to my second Amendment. I am asking that the word "equipment" be included as well as apparatus. In the Clause, we have, "apparatus, furnishings and utensils." I have an example in mind. What about things like dishcloths? This is terribly important. Dishcloths are not really apparatus, and I do not think that they are utensils; they certainly are not furnishings. Surely there is a whole lot of minor things like that which ought to be as clean as the rest.

I had this experience. Some time ago, at Victoria Station, where we ought to have the kind of cafeteria or restaurant system which would impress people, especially Americans visiting this country, I went in for a meal in the cafeteria, and I found a man going round with a little trolley clearing up the debris after meals. My secretary was with me, and we both made a note of what happened so that I could raise the matter later. The man going round had the most filthy dishcloth I have ever seen. With it he was wiping the tables on which some people were putting bread, because people do not always put bread on a plate when there is a smooth-topped table. This man had a lovely bandaged finger as a result of a recent out, and presumably was spreading a few germs by this means, as well as by the dishcloth.

I said to him, "Why are you using a dishcloth as filthy as that." He said. "They are issued to us once a week and we have to wait for clean ones until the end of the week. I have told them about it, but they say, 'You must wait for the next issue.'" The same applies to clothing. In Britain we do not have a standard of replacing things as they become dirty. Instead, we say, "There is an issue once a week, and you have got to make it do until the next issue comes along." These things are important, because they spread disease, and I hope that they are important enough for the Government to accept these Amendments.

Mr. Percy Shurmer (Birmingham, Sparkbrook)

I should like to support what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman), because it is quite easy for people to wear clean aprons or pinafores or white coats. My hon. Friend mentioned a railway station. I went into Nuneaton station a few weeks ago for a cup of tea. The woman who served me had a filthy bandage on her finger, which, I should think, had not been removed for a week. She served me, looking as if she had been wiping the floor like a charwoman, in a dirty old apron. That sort of thing is happening in a great many places.

I know that people from factories and places like Smithfield Market go into cafés to have a meal in their working clothes, hut there is no need for the tables to be wiped with dirty dishcloths which have been used for two or three days in succession without being properly washed. We are spoiling everything that we are doing with regard to protecting the food of the people unless we try to ensure that the people serving have clean hands and clothing, and, if they have injured their hands, are wearing clean bandages.

Mr. W. E. Padley (Ogmore)

As my name appears to the Amendment which raises the question of clothing. I think that it would probably be better if I spoke on this Amendment rather than move another one later. I wish to address my remarks to the Parliamentary Secretary very briefly, because it seems to me that here is an issue about which almost all reasonable people are agreed.

The Chairman

I think it would be better if the hon. Gentleman reserved his remarks, because I propose to call his Amendment.

9.30 p.m.

Mr. Amory

There are no differences between us on this matter, and I can accept the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Batley and Morley (Dr. Broughton). I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Northfield (Mr. Chapman) about the importance of clean clothing, and our draft regulations deal with the cleanliness of over-clothing. I am advised that the inclusion of over-clothing is intra vires, but in order to remove doubt about the matter I am prepared to include clothing here. We are not happy about the place which the hon. Gentleman has chosen for the word, but we will see if we can find a better position in which to insert it. If the hon. Member will not press his Amendment I will see that the word "clothing" is included in some other place in the Clause.

Regarding his second Amendment. I am advised that "apparatus" properly covers "equipment," but to make absolutely sure I see no disadvantage in including the word as he suggested.

Mr. Willey

I am glad to see that the learned Solicitor-General is present, and I feel that I am expressing the view of everyone when I congratulate him on his new appointment. I am sure that he will afford us every assistance in dealing with this Bill.

I wish to ask the Minister if it would be better to accept an Amendment relating to clothing which we have later on the Order Paper. I appreciate the difficulty of dealing with clothing at this stage, because under (b) we are dealing with requirements regarding premises, apparatus and similar matters. But we have a specific Amendment down about clothing which I hope the Minister will be able to accept.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Chapman

I beg to move, in page 6, line 15, after "apparatus," to insert "equipment."

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Stross

I beg to move, in page 6, line 16, at the end, to insert: and in particular for imposing requirements that every sanitary convenience situate in such premises shall be supplied with water through a suitable flushing appliance. I hope that this Amendment will be accepted. The draft regulations provide for exactly this and state why, because it is essential that every effort be made to prevent the contamination of water supplies, and therefore there has to be proper trapping and a proper system of sanitation. One is conversant with the fact that where water is not available there will have to be exceptions to this regulation. I am sure that that is provided for in draft Regulation 31, under which local authorities are able to obtain exemption in cases where it is impossible to carry this regulation into effect.

Mr. Amory

The powers granted in Clause 6 would perfectly well enable regulations to be made to require that every sanitary convenience is supplied with water through a suitable flushing appliance. That is what we want. Therefore, we do not consider that, strictly speaking, the Amendment is necessary. However, such pleasant harmony is prevailing and we are so anxious that the spirit which has become infectious should persist throughout our discussions, that, as there is no difference in principle or in intention, I am prepared to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Summerskill

I beg to move, in page 6, line 22, at the end, to insert: (d) for requiring the medical examination of persons engaged in preparing, handling, wrap- ping or delivering food and for prohibiting such persons suffering from, or being the carriers of, infection or disease from being so engaged and for providing for the compensation of any persons so prohibited. I hope that the Minister will be equally sympathetic to this Amendment. On Second Reading, in July, I spoke very strongly about the omission of certain provisions from the draft regulations. I am pleased to see that the Minister has had second thoughts since then and that the regulations have been strengthened considerably. Nevertheless, there are still most important omissions. The intention of the Amendment is to strengthen the regulations. It asks that those who work in the food industry should have a medical examination.

On Second Reading, the Parliamentary Secretary expressed the opinion that any person suffering from dermatitis should certainly not be allowed to handle or pack food. Hon. Members, naturally, accepted that. Surely the hon. Gentleman will agree that anybody suffering from active tuberculosis equally should be excluded from the handling or packing of food. I am sure that the Minister of Health will agree. The Amendment merely asks that people who suffer from diseases which might be infectious and which might be transmitted through the food to consumers should be examined.

It might be argued that this would cost money but fortunately, thanks to a previous Labour Government, we have a free Health Service. The result is that anybody who wants a checkup can have it from his doctor without charge. I remind the Minister that any person who takes a position in the Civil Service of a minor character—a telephonist, for example—is compelled to have a medical examination before he or she is accepted. Surely, in the interests of the public the Amendment should be accepted.

The hour is getting late. The Minister has been most sympathetic. The argu- ments so far deployed must have convinced him that we are anxious to strengthen the Bill and, at the same time, to protect the public.

Mr. Padley

I speak as president of one of the trade unions most concerned in the matter. It is not my function, as a trade union leader, to enter the contest between the doctors as to which diseases render a person unfit for the handling of food. That is a medical question to be settled on medical grounds. When the draft regulations were sent to the trade unions it was significant that no trade union with workers employed in the food industries objected to them. The sole point on which representations were made related to the question of compensation.

There are two very sound grounds for explicitly providing compensation for workers who are affected by the regulations. First, it is desirable for the worker not to seek to hide such a disease, for that would be opposed to the public interest, and, therefore, to give the worker some sense of security is strongly in the public interest.

There is also the question of justice. The regulations suggested by the Minister cover typhoid and paratyphoid. I had a very difficult case to handle in my constituency two years ago. A middle-aged woman was found to be a paratyphoid carrier. She was not aware of it; it was suddenly discovered. The medical officer of health, acting under existing regulations, had to declare her unfit for certain occupations.

Very great problems arose. Was the lady entitled to sickness benefit under the National Insurance Act? Was she entitled to unemployment benefit? When she was offered employment nine miles away in light industry and declined to go, she was denied unemployment benefit. Then her entitlement to National Assistance came under dispute. When my constituent came to me, she felt a hounded and hunted creature. As a result of correspondence between myself and the Ministers of Health and National Insurance, we found ways and means of dealing with those problems.

However, the House is about to approve new legislation under which regulations will be issued, and I feel that this is the time for it to declare in a most emphatic manner that, while it is of great national importance that carriers of infectious diseases and persons with diseases which are likely to be injurious to public health should not handle foodstuffs, there should be no repetition of the hounding and hunting suffered by my constituent. Consequently, I hope that the Minister will accept the very strongly held view of the trade unions that side by side with regulations of this kind there should be explicit provision for compensation payments to the workers concerned.

Sir Frederick Messer (Tottenham)

I consider the Amendment to be important especially in regard to dermatitis, a disease which is by no means uncommon in the confectionery industry. It can be contracted by contact with dust, oils, certain acids and flour.

The difficulty about dermatitis is that although a short time after one has contracted it every sign of it may disappear, whenever the case again comes in contact with the substance which gave rise to the infection it will break out again. Sugar may be responsible for a girl in a sweet factory having dermatitis, but if she leaves her job, there is nothing to prevent her from working in another sweet factory.

The difficulty does not end there. If a girl suffering from dermatitis washes her hands and wipes them on a towel which somebody else uses, the other person will contract the disease. There are, therefore, two sides to it. One is that it can be caught by other people, and the other is the danger arising from anybody suffering from a disease of that description using their naked hands in the manufacture of food of any sort.

I realise that this is one aspect of the matter, and that there are others. A tuberculosis contact is a danger to all those people working in association with that contact, but that particular aspect is not quite so acute as the one to which I have referred, in which the very industry itself can be responsible for the creation of the disease. I therefore support the Amendment.

9.45 p.m.

Dr. Stross

I am sorry to disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Sir F. Messer) on this question of transmitting dermatitis from one person to another. If my hon. Friend means industrial dermatitis, which is a disease due to an irritant, I agree that that view is commonly held, and that it results in many people who are perfectly healthy being disinclined to work with someone else who has industrial dermatitis, although we know that there is nothing contagious or infectious about it, in any case, unless there should be a secondary infection. Of course, I entirely agree that such people should not be handling food, because of the risk of secondary infection.

My right hon. Friend, in moving this Amendment, had in mind the question whether we might think in terms of two types of medical examination—a simple type carried out through the family doctor, and another where there is any suspicion or certainty that anybody has become a carrier of an infectious disease. In those few cases, there will have to be a more extensive and more careful examination before such people are given a clean bill of health. I refer to a person suspected of being a carrier of paratyphoid, in which case there would have to be a bacteriological examination, and a hospital would have to be brought into the picture. We must bear that in mind.

As far as compensation for those who are judged to be carriers of disease are concerned, I am sure we all accept the desirability of compensation to nurses who contract tuberculosis in the course of their work, and we might reasonably extend it to cover these cases as well.

Dr. Hill

I had read this Amendment in a rather different sense from the one which has just been put upon it by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), and it seems to me to make possible the making of regulations to require a medical examination of certain types of person. If we are searching for carriers of disease, that would certainly be one of the most important purposes, but it would be a most extensive examination that would be involved—a most detailed bacteriological examination. There is a principle here in requiring persons within certain categories to submit themselves to medical examination, and I can only say that I do not like it.

Before we reach a conclusion, however, let us look at the existing provisions. Whatever else may be said, this is a most important point in securing the prevention of the spread of infection in this way. . It is dealt with in public health legislation and in infectious diseases regulations, and, at the instance of a medical officer of health, a local authority can today exclude a person who, in his opinion, is suffering from, or is shown to be a carrier of, certain listed infections. That list is adequate for present purposes and can be extended if necessary.

That is the first point. If it is decided to exclude the food handler under these Regulations, that food handler is entitled to make a claim for compensation. The draft Regulations which it is proposed to make when the Bill becomes law, seek to carry that matter a little further. Regulation 8 proposes to provide—

Mr. A. J. Champion (Derbyshire, South-East)

On a point of order. I hear constant reference to draft Regulations. Are those draft Regulations generally available to the Committee? If so, where can we obtain them?

The Chairman

That is not a point of order.

Dr. Hill

I shall be glad to supply them to the hon. Member. They are items for inclusion in a code which is still the subject of consultation. It is the third draft. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) has copies, and I shall be glad to let any hon. Member have a copy. I hope that the point of order will not be pressed because I want to deal with the very important point that has been raised.

It is proposed, if the Bill becomes law, to make regulations which will provide that if a person engaged in the handling of food becomes aware that he is suffering from one of a list of diseases, which can be extended for the purpose, he is to give notice of the fact to the occupier of the premises, who is required to notify the medical officer of health. That does not go the whole way which the right hon. Lady would wish but it leads us to the position that when a sufferer has made known his condition the machinery can be set going for compensation, if required to discontinue work, and, of course, for so discontinuing.

I do not pretend that this is ideal, but I suggest that the other proposal in the Amendment of medical investigation of I believe about 180,000 people engaged in these trades—a large number—means that the examination will have to be regular and repeated if it is to be of value. The examination will have to be of a detailed bacteriological kind if it is to reveal a carrier. That is something too formidable and not without its difficulties of principle. We should develop and proceed along the lines of the Infectious Diseases Regulations, modified it may well be by regulations made under the Bill.

Mr. Champion

Further to the point of order that I raised just now. The Minister has made reference to a document. Is it not the case that when a Minister makes references to a document of that sort the document is then made available to the whole Committee?

The Chairman

The Minister did not quote the document. So far as I am concerned, there is no point of order. Whether these documents are available or not I cannot answer.

Mr. Willey

The Parliamentary Secretary has given us a most disappointing reply. We appreciate that some advance has been made in the draft Regulations. We do not complain of that. The hon. Gentleman's approach to this problem is not as helpful as we expected. I do not intend to deal with the medical side of the matter but will leave that to the hon. Member. I want to put two points to the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Bill very largely arises from working parties' reports. The Meat Product Working Party Report made it one of its recommendations that the Department concerned should give immediate consideration to the extension of the relevant provisions of the Public Health (Infectious Diseases) Regulations, 1927, and to the infectious diseases that cause food poisoning. The Catering Working Party made recommendations, of which No. 10 said: Consideration should be given to the desirability of amending the Public Health (Infectious Diseases) Regulations, 1927, … by extending their scope as far as practicable, taking account of the problem of compensation. It considered that the regulations relating to the paratyphoid diseases and dysentery should become applicable to the various food poisoning infections and other infections which may be spread by food. In view of the specific recommendations made by both working parties, it is incumbent on the Government themselves to make proposals for this legislation.

My hon. Friends have pressed an Amendment which would give the Government power to do what both working parties have recommended, and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to think again about this. As I say, both working parties made this cardinal point in their recommendations. When the Parliamentary Secretary says that there are difficulties about this, I would point out that all we are doing is to give powers. I am leaving the medical aspect to my right hon. Friend, but I should have thought that, in view of the recommendations of both working parties which examined the problem of the catering and meat products trades, the Government could accept the Amendment.

Dr. Stross

I do not think that the Parliamentary Secretary really answered

the point I put to him, which is that if, for argument's sake, he cannot give way on the whole of this, why not consider the question of new entrants bringing with them a certificate of fitness upon entering industry? After all, one has to start somewhere.

Dr. Hill

With respect, fitness to enter industry is quite a different point. This is a detailed scrutiny of the man in the job, not in relation to his own physique or health, but in relation to the hazards which he may present to others.

Dr. Summerskill

In view of the unsatisfactory reply of the Parliamentary Secretary, I must ask my hon. Friends to divide the Committee.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 208; Noes, 231.

Division No. 219.] AYES [9.58 p.m.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Kenyon, C.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Fienburgh, W. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Finch, H. J. King, Dr. H. M.
Awbery, S. S. Foot, M. M. Kinley, J.
Balfour, A. Forman, J. C. Lawson, G. M.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Bartley, P. Gibson, C. W. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)
Beattie, J. Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J Greenwood, Anthony Logan, D. G.
Bence, C. R. Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. MacColl, J. E.
Beswick, F. Grey, C. F. McGhee, H. G.
Blackburn, F. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) McInnes, J.
Blenkinsop, A. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) McKay, John (Wallsend)
Boardman, H. Hale, Leslie McLeavy, F.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)
Bowden, H. W. Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Bowles, F. G. Hamilton., W. W. Mann, Mrs. Jean
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Hannan, W. Manuel, A. C.
Brockway, A. F. Hardy, E. A. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Hargreaves, A. Mason, Roy
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D, Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Mellish, R. J.
Brown, Rt. Hen. George (Belper) Hastings, S. Messer, Sir F.
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Hayman, F. H. Mitchison, G. R.
Burke, W. A. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S. E.) Monslow, W.
Burton, Miss F. E. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) Moody, A. S.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Herbison, Miss M. Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.
Callaghan, L. J. Hewitson, Capt. M. Morley, R.
Carmichael, J. Hobson, C. R. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)
Champion, A. J. Holman, P. Mort, D. L.
Chapman, W. D. Holmes, Horace Moyle, A.
Clunie, J. Houghton, Douglas Mulley, F. W.
Collick, P. H. Hoy, J. H. Murray, J. D.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hubbard, T. F. Nally, W.
Grossman, R. H. S. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Neal, Harold (Bolsover)
Collins, V. J. Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) O'Brien, T.
Darling, George (Hillsborough) Hynd, H. (Accrington) Oldfield, W. H.
Davies, Harold (Leek) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Oliver, G. H.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Oswald, T.
de Freitas, Geoffrey Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Padley, W. E.
Deer, G. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Delargy, H. J. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Dodds, N. N. Jeger, Mrs. Lena Pannell, Charles
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Pargiter, G. A.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Parker, J.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Paton, J.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech Peart, T. F.
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Keenan, W. Plummer, Sir Leslie
Popplewell, E. Skeffington, A. M. Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.)
Porter, G. Mater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent) Weitzman, D.
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Slater, J (Durham, Sedgefield) Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Proctor, W. T. Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) West, D. G.
Pryde, D. J. Sorensen, R. W. Wheeldon, W. E.
Rankin, John Sparks, J. A. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Reeves, J, Steele, T. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Reid, William (Camlachie) Stross, Dr. Barnett Wilkins, W. A.
Rhodes, H. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Willey, F. T.
Richards, R. Sylvester, G. O. Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Taylor, John (West Lothian) Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) Willis, E. G.
Ross, William Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Shackleton, E. A. A. Timmons, J. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Short, E. W. Tomney, F. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Shurmer, P. L. E. Usborne, H. C. Yates, V. F.
Silverman, Julius (Erdington) Viant, S. P. Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Warbey, W. N.
Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) Watkins, T. E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Mr. Pearson and Mr. Wallace.
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Fort, R. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.
Alport, C. J. M. Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) Longden, Gilbert
Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Ansthruther-Gray, Major W. J. Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) Garner-Evans, E. H. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S.
Aster, Hon. J. J. Glover, D. Macdonald, Sir Peter
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Godber, J. B. McKibbin, A. J.
Baldwin, A. E. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Banks Col., C. Gower, H. R. Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Barber, Anthony Graham, Sir Fergus Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)
Barlow, Sir John Gridley, Sir Arnold MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty)
Baxter, Sir Beverley Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) Hall, John (Wycombe) Maitland, Cmdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Harden, J. R. E. Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Hare, Hon. J. H. Marlowe, A. A. H.
Birch, Nigel Harris, Frederic (Croyden, N.) Marples, A. E.
Bishop, F. P. Harris, Reader (Heston) Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)
Black, C. W. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Maude, Angus
Boothby, Sir R. J. G Harvie-Watt, Sir George Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Bossom, Sir A. C. Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Medlicott, Brig. F.
Bowen, E. R. Heath, Edward Mellor, Sir John
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Higgs, J. M. C. Molson, A. H. E.
Braithwaite, Sir Gurney Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Moore, Sir Thomas
Brooman-White, R. C. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Browne, Jack (Govan) Hirst, Geoffrey Nabarro, G. D. N.
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Holland-Martin, C. J. Neave, Airey
Bullard, D. G. Holt, A. F. Nicholls, Harmar
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Hope, Lord John Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)
Burden, F. F. A. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Nield, Basil (Chester)
Butcher, Sir Herbert Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Noble, Comdr. A. H. P.
Campbell, Sir David Horobin, I. M. Nugent, G. R. H
Cary, Sir Robert Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Oakshott, H. D.
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Odey, G. W.
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Cole, Norman Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Colegate, W. A. Hughes-Hallet, Vice-Admiral J. Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Hulbert, Wing Cmdr. N. J. Page, R. G.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Hurd, A. R. Partridge, E.
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Perkins, Sir Robert
Crouch, R. F. Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hylton-Foster, Sir H. B. H. Peyton, J. W. W.
Deedes, W. F. Iremonger, T. L. Pickthorn, K. W. M
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Pitman, I. J.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Pitt, Miss E. M.
Doughty, S. J. A. Keeling, Sir Edward Powell, J. Enoch
Drewe, Sir C. Kerby, Capt. H. B. Price, Henry (Lewisham W.)
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Kerr, H. W. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Duthie, W. S. Lambert, Hon. G. Profumo, J. D.
Elliot, fit. Hon. W. E. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Raikes, Sir Victor
Erroll, F. J. Langford-Holt, J. A. Ramsden, J. E.
Fell, A. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Rayner, Brig. R.
Finlay, Graeme Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Redmayne, M.
Fisher, Nigel Lindsay, Martin Remnant, Hon. P.
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F Linstead, Sir H. N. Renton, D. L. M.
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Llewellyn, D. T. Ridsdale, J. E.
Ford, Mrs. Patricia Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Robertson, Sir David
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) Wade, D. W.
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Roper, Sir Harold Storey, S. Walker-Smith, D. C.
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) Wall, Major Patrick
Russell, R. S. Summers, G. S. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas Sutcliffe, Sir Harold Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Scott, R. Donald Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Scott-Miller, Comdr. R. Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) Wellwood, W.
Shepherd, William Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Thorneycroft, Rt. Hn. Peter (Monmouth) Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) Tilney, John Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Soames, Capt. C. Turner, H. F. L. Wills, G.
Spearman, A. C. M. Turton, R. H. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Speir, R. M. Tweedsmuir, Lady Wood, Hon. R.
Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Vane, W. M. F.
Stevens, Geoffrey Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) Vosper, D. F. Mr. Studholme and Mr. Kaberry.

It being Ten o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.