Transport Units (Sale) (Hansard, 17 November 1954)

§ 31. Mr. Ernest Davies
asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation for how many transport units including more than 50 vehicles he has given his approval in accordance with Section 3 (3) of the Transport Act, 1953; and how many such units have been sold.

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I have given approval under Section 3 (3) of the Act in 15 cases. One of these units has been sold. Two others were withdrawn and are being disposed of as companies under Section 5. Decisions on tenders for another seven have not yet been taken.

§ Mr. Davies
Would the Minister say how many vehicles are concerned in the one unit which has been disposed of? Does he not agree that the slowness of disposal of the large units indicates that a disproportionate number of vehicles are being sold in very small lots, which is leading to the disintegration of the road transport industry and giving concern to commerce and industry, as instanced by representations made by the Association of British Chambers of Commerce?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
Without notice, I cannot give the figure for which the hon. Gentleman asks. In reply to his more general comment, I see no evidence of disintegration, but, on the contrary, evidence of the highly-increasing efficiency.

§ Mr. Woodburn
Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to see that those vehicles which are being sold are not being sold at give-away prices in order to get rid of them?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
Parliament imposed the responsibility of supervising this disposal on the Disposal Board. I have every reason to believe that the board is discharging its duties satisfactorily.

§ Mr. Nabarro
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the much larger number of long-distance vehicles now flying private enterprise colours, resulting in an increase in operational efficiency—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]—is a source of very great satisfaction to the whole of British industry and commerce?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I do not think it is going too badly.

§ Mr. Davies
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an instance of where the efficiency of road transport in this country has increased as a result of these sales?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I think the increasing competition is giving to the consumer greater freedom of choice.

Hon. Members
Where?

§ Mr. Nabarro
Every day and in every way.

§ 33. Mr. Ernest Davies
asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the total number of transport units and the total number of vehicles sold to date.

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
Three thousand one hundred and twenty-two and 10,009 respectively.

§ Mr. Davies
Does not this show that the average size of the unit which has been disposed of is about three vehicles? Does the Minister believe that if that number of vehicles has been sold in lots of three, that manner of breaking up what was an efficient national organisation will increase the efficiency of road transport?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I am not disputing the mathematics of the hon. Member, but he will appreciate that the fact that sales have taken place in quite small units does not mean that the units with which those vehicles are operating are necessarily small.

§ Mr. Callaghan
As it is the view of the Minister that British Road Services, due to competition, is showing high and increased efficiency, why has he plunged the nation into a loss of £20 million by breaking it up?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well the basis of that calculation, and if he will refresh his memory by studying the Third Schedule to the Act of 1953 it will clear up any doubt.

§ Mr. Callaghan
Is it not the fact that the loss of £20 million which the Government propose to incur is to be recovered by a levy on industry which in the long run will pay this? I ask again, why should he put this levy on industry, which will have to make up the loss of £20 million, just to get rid of an industry which has greatly increased in efficiency?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the issues of nationalisation and de-nationalisation do not turn on the adjustments which have to be made in the process—any more than the nationalisation scheme of his party was prevented by the fact that it was necessary to pay substantial compensation.

§ Captain Duncan
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether the figures which he has given show that the small man has the first chance?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
There is considerable indication that the small man is being given opportunities and that they are being taken.

§ Mr. Popplewell
In view of the very small number of vehicles which have been sold, compared with the very large number offered, and as this disposal scheme appears to be a failure, the next step of the British Transport Commission, according to instructions, will be to hive off losses on the bigger quantities. This will establish a private monopoly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."]—and in view of that, will the Minister have another look at this matter, quite apart from any doctrinaire question? Will he look at it with a view to maintaining the present efficiency, which is likely to deteriorate?

§ Mr. Langford-Holt
On a point of order. Can hon. Members sitting in this part of the House join in this private conversation?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
I do not accept the assumption of the hon. Member that 10,009 is a small figure, and therefore, in my view, the assumptions on which his supplementary question was based do not arise.

§ Mr. Callaghan
The whole lot ought to be sold by 31st December.

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
That may be the view of the hon. Member.

§ Mr. Manuel
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is a conversation going on between the Minister and a Member of the Opposition Front Bench. May we be told what that private conversation is about, and how it affects the business of the House?

§ Mr. Speaker
Like the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel), I also was fortunate enough not to hear the conversation.