§ 25. Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will prevent the transference of African prisoners in Northern Rhodesia to prisons in the South African Union.
§ 26 Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he will ensure that the powers of the Northern Rhodesia Ordinance No. 54, of 1953, will not be used for returning to the Union of South Africa refugees who have contravened the immigration laws of Northern Rhodesia in their flight from South Africa;
(2) how many white citizens of the Union of South Africa have been de-ported from Northern Rhodesia during the past year under the Northern Rhodesia Ordinance No. 54, of 1953;
(3) why the Northern Rhodesia Ordinance, No. 54, 1953, under which prisoners may be removed to the Union of South Africa, makes no mention of it being applicable only to Union nationals, in view of the fact that it is the intention of the Northern Rhodesian Government 1946 to transfer to South Africa only long-term prisoners who are citizens of the Union.
§ Mr. LytteltonNo prisoner has been removed under Northern Rhodesia Ordinance No. 54 of last year and, as I informed the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Younger) on 12th May, the intention of the Northern Rhodesian Government is normally to transfer to the Union of South Africa only long-term prisoners who are citizens of the Union. They will naturally not do so without being satisfied as to the conditions to which a prisoner was to be transferred. The reason why the Ordinance was not limited to citizens of the Union is that in certain cases it might be to the advantage of the prisoner to be transferred to the Union and it was thought desirable to leave the Governor free to judge individual cases on their merits in the interests of the prisoners themselves—which is in fact the whole object of the provision. I can assure the House that the Ordinance would not be used to return refugees to any country.
§ Mr. BrockwayWould not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is very dangerous to adopt an Ordinance such as this which applies to prisoners of every type and which can only be safeguarded by an assurance by the Minister in this House, which does not necessarily have legal authority?
§ Mr. LytteltonThe hon. Member's apprehensions would have more foundation if it were not that the Governor may be relied upon to bring all the relevant matters into consideration. So far I have given instructions that no one is to be transferred from Northern Rhodesia without reference to the Secretary of State.
§ Sir L. PlummerMight I ask whether, in view of the comparatively inhuman conditions under which non-Europeans have to live in South African gaols, there will be reciprocity with South Africa to enable Northern Rhodesians and Nyasalanders to be returned to their countries from gaols in the Union?
§ Mr. LytteltonThat matter is now under discussion.
Mr. DugdaleDid I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that prisoners were transferred only if it was 1947 in accordance with their own wishes, or can they be transferred against their own wishes? Has the right hon. Gentleman any control whatever over the conditions to which the prisoners go in the gaols in South Africa?
§ Mr. LytteltonThe answer to the second part of the supplementary question is "No." The answer to the first part is that it is not done with the prisoners' consent, but there are occasions when it is in their interests, such as for medical reasons, to be transferred to the Union.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Northern Rhodesian Government has the right to send representatives to see the conditions in the prisons in which these people will be kept?
§ Mr. LytteltonNo, Sir, but before there is any transfer the Northern Rhodesian Government will have to satisfy me that the conditions and the reasons for making the transfer are sufficient.