§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Vosper. ]
§ 12.16 a.m.
§ Mr. Norman Dodds (Dartford)The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, who is to reply to the debate, has been good enough to state that he would like 15 minutes to reply as he has got much to say, so I will condense my speech in the hope that the country will get the maximum amount of information on this subject of helicopters.
Britain made a good start with helicopters, and in 1939 the British helicopter E.W.6 was the first to fly with passengers. B.E.A. operated the world's first regular helicopter passenger and night mail service. That was not so long ago, but the early kick-off with helicopters does not seem to have been maintained, and in the meantime we have lost very considerably in the lead.
In the United States, companies using helicopters for flying with permanent mail services are making them commercial successes. Belgium with its Sabena airlines is running the first international passenger service, and the American armed services, largely because of the operations in Korea, have made developments which will be of great value to the manufacturers in America. But in this country we seem to be making a special feature of talking of the lack of the necessary helicopters and the lack of official and public support.
Many people would like to know how long this is going to go on, because if we are to wait for the perfect helicopter we will have to wait a long time. It is well-known that in research and design our manufacturers are second to none, but with development of route flying and so on experience is not going to be obtained by waiting to get the perfect helicopter.
I do not think there is anyone who can believe that this is possible purely through private enterprise alone, and what is needed is a lot of governmental support for the necessary research work. A few days ago one authority said quite plainly that Britain lags behind in the 1914 helicopter race. That was stated on 1st April by Lord Douglas, who is chairman of British European Airways. He made it quite plain that we are lagging very far behind and that America was going so far forward that it looks as if before long we shall be looking to America for helicopters if we are to keep in the race at all.
In answer to a Question put in this House some months ago, it was stated that 47 local authorities were especially interested in helicopter air passenger services, and that business concerns are planning to have flat roofs for helicopter services for their businesses. Even the Co-operative movement has produced a plan for the Bristol Co-operative Society estimating to cost £1½ million, which includes a project for a flat roof, which it is expected will be ready in three and a half to four years. The Belgian Sabena lines are well equipped in this respect, and in Brussels there is a rota station.
There are many towns in this country and businesses, too, who are wondering when a decision is to be made about a site in London. Surely if Brussels can nave one, then London can have one. I do not think that is too much to ask. I would ask for a decision on schemes like those for Charing Cross Station or Waterloo Station, or even the suggestion I made, namely, Cannon Street Station, for that is an area where there are not so many people residing.
It seems to me that one of the difficulties is that there is not enough development and route flying experience. On the 17th May last the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) put this Question to the Minister of Supply:
Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind very valuable flying data in connection with helicopters has been obtained from the S.51 Services operated by B.E.A.C.Then the hon. Gentleman comes to routes, and he asks:Why has there been an cessation in the last 12 months of those experimental flights? Could we not continue with the S.55, for instance, as a preliminary to the machine mentioned in the Question?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May, 1954; Vol. 527, col. 1686.]The machine mentioned in the Question is the S.56 which, according to the reports which I have received, will be in operation probably years before any other which can accommodate 30 or 40 passengers. 1915 There are many Government departments which are interested in helicopters; the Air Ministry, the War Office, the Admiralty, Transport and Civil Aviation, Supply, the Post Office, the Colonial Office, and the Treasury; and there were Questions put to the Minister of Supply on 31st May about inter-Departmental committees. The Minister disposed of the subject very quickly by saying that he did not think we should get any more helicopters by setting up a Departmental committee. Later, he gave the names of the Departments represented on an inter-Departmental committee, and did state that within recent months it had met on three occasions.But there are two Departments which should be on the committee and are not; one is the Post Office, and the other is certainly the Colonial Office. The latter seems to be fighting shy of aviation development in the Colonies. The Minister of Supply has raised some important queries, but I cannot condense everything into 15 minutes tonight; I must leave them to another occasion, or else seek to get answers by letter.
There is an authority, Sir Ben Lockspeiser, Secretary to the Committee of the Privy Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and he has commented very forcibly on the development of airfields in Britain. He forecasts that future airfields will be built well away from big towns, and have fast and regular helicopter services to London and other large cities. Sir Ben has said that before long the helicopter pilot will be as common as the engine driver. Now, that raises a big question. There is a lot of work to be done, and done very quickly if we are to have the pilots visualised by this expert.
Those people in this country who are interested in helicopter development ask what is to happen about the training of helicopter pilots who will be required very soon in civil and Service forces. Nobody who knows anything about this subject doubts but that there will be big civil "airbus" helicopters, probably on the pattern of the Fairey Rotodyne, and that fixed wing aircraft will be out of date for distances up to 300 miles.
The next thing is whether, in view of what Sir Ben Lockspeiser has said, the 1916 plan for Gatwick aerodrome is really sensible. The Government White Paper has stated that the principal use of that airfield will be short hauls to and from the Channel Islands and the near continental resorts and, therefore, I do ask, "Should we not be thinking more of assistance to helicopter development and less of developing Gatwick"?
The American Air Transport forecasts 6 million helicopter passengers by 1960. Many people would like to know our forecast—or is it believed that once again the Americans are talking big? We need fleets of simple, cheap, two-seater trainers to produce a large number of helicopter pilots. What is being done? Are the Government prepared to help by introducing helicopter flying clubs before some of the smaller airfields are closed down and it becomes too late?
This week-end I received a report from America stating that there is a mass production of small helicopters as simple to operate as motor cars. They are expected to be in production before the end of this year, and it is estimated that the cost will be less than £2,000 each. They will carry two passengers and travel 300 miles on 22 gallons of petrol at 90 miles per hour. What is our position?
Again, many of the general public are very deeply disturbed in regard to the private enterprise of Mr. John Murray. It was said by the Minister who is to reply tonight that Mr. Murray asked for permission for a tethered flight. Is that so? Did he ask that it should not rise more than 10 feet? If it passes the first test, will Mr. Murray get an airworthiness certificate? Mr. Murray and many others would like an answer to these questions.
Some years ago I hired a helicopter to go to Dartford. For a long time I was in negotiation with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and I was staggered by the yardstick they used for third-party insurance. It is felt that the view in this regard is unrealistic. Even in some official circles the feeling seems to be that if one of these single-engined machines "conks out" it will fall like a stone. I have seen what happens when at various heights the engine has been deliberately shut off. Those knowing anything about helicopters know quite well that there is little risk of damage on landing. Time after time they come 1917 down quite easily. There can also be a control to allow them to land.
I congratulate the Admiralty. It is the bright spot in a very black cloud. It is the enterprising Department. I wish that some of its enthusiasm and enterprise could be acquired by some of the other Departments. On the other hand, on 8th June we had a reply from the War Office. Never was there a more stick-in-the-mud answer.
The United States report that in Korea the helicopter pilots flew over 500,000 hours and evacuated 16,000 casualties, in many cases from forward-lying positions. From some of our own men the testimony is that the helicopter is a great morale booster.
Then there is the Post Office. In Chicago the Post Office has run a helicopter service and in three years their six machines have made 160,000 landings and take-offs without accident; in 40,000 cases the landings and take-offs have been on top of the Central Post Office which is 240 ft. from the street. I suggest that our Post Office when worried about mailbag robberies might think of using this as a secure means of dealing with the mails.
The Colonial Office is about the worst of the lot. Its answer to a Question asked on 2nd June, 1954, is really shocking in the extreme. I feel that I shall have to look for another Adjournment Motion to deal with all the aspects of the answer to that Question. Therefore, in the hope that we shall really hear something good tonight from the Parliamentary Secretary I shall close with these words: Many people believe—and I agree with them—that, given the necessary confidence and Governmental support, and given time, the helicopter can become a great national asset for this island of ours. In spite of all the difficulties connected with this problem I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary, tonight, will be able to mark another milestone on the long road to success.
§ 12.31 a.m.
§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Profumo)I know that my colleagues will want to join with me in congratulating the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) on having packed so much enthusiastic advice into such a remarkably short space of time. 1918 It would be impossible for me to reply to all the charges he has made, but it is right to say that his main concern is whether or not this country is lagging behind in helicopter development. That is the concern of us all.
To start with, I should like to dispose of some of the arguments which are not directly my own responsibility. With regard to the Ministry of Supply angle in the development of the helicopter, we have a very proud record, and one which is progressing solidly. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply said the other day, the amount being spent by the Government on this development was doubled in 1952; it was doubled again in 1953, and it is going to be doubled again this year, when it is likely to reach the sum of more than £2½ million. There is no short cut, or cheap way of developing any new means of transport.
In regard to the Inter-Departmental Helicopter Committee, there are numerous Departments other than those which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned which have user interests. There are the Home Office, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Scottish Office, and so on, and practical considerations rule out all these Departments joining in all the deliberations as to requirements. But I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my own Department keeps the closest contact with all potential users.
The hon. Gentleman was interested in the Post Office, thinking that it might be able to assist more than any other in pioneering helicopter services. The Post Office has always taken a great part in this work, but there are essential requirements about the use of helicopters for Post Office service, such as the acceleration of mail at reasonable cost and a high standard of regularity under all weather conditions, and the experiments which have so far been carried out with available helicopters have not been able to satisfy those conditions. The matter is constantly being reconsidered in the light of developments both here and overseas, and the Post Office will be very quick to consider using this type of aircraft as soon as there is a reasonable prospect of the essential requirements being met.
I now come to the operations which are directly the responsibility of my right hon. Friend. While I welcome the 1919 enthusiasm and interest which this matter commands not only in this House but all over the country, I would point out that it must be our job to temper this with realism. The helicopter is still a very new and untried form of transport. The true helicopter era cannot really begin until these machines can operate at fares which the traffic can command, and can operate in and out of city centres for which the helicopter is primarily required as a means of transport. For these requirements we must have large twin-engined helicopters.
Nevertheless, although single-engined helicopters must be limited to routes which offer a reasonable chance of forced landing without endangering the general public in the event of an engine failure, the Government have constantly been determined to take every opportunity of gaining such experience as will directly assist long-term development. We certainly do not expect British European Airways should bear the exceedingly heavy cost of experimental services where passenger revenue will not anything like meet operating expenditure, and it is for this reason that the Government bear 88 per cent. of the annual cost of the helicopter experimental unit which is operated by British European Airways.
As the next logical step in our development programme, a step that has been carefully thought out and is the result of logical progress, we now propose to authorise British European Airways to purchase immediately two S55 machines which, although American in design, will be manufactured in this country. As soon as these helicopters have obtained a British certificate of airworthiness our intention is to start an experimental scheduled passenger service between London Airport and the centre of London itself.
Fortunately, the River Thames provides a natural approach lane into the heart of the Metropolis without undue risk to the population, and the Sikorsky 55, unlike any existing British helicopter, is designed to carry floats without any undue loss of payload. British European Airways considers floats are a necessary precaution against possible forced landings in the river.
1920 This service should yield very valuable experience indeed in the operation into the centre of a large city and also into a busy international airport. Furthermore, it will, of course, test the public reaction to noise, which, we all appreciate, is a most serious factor to be taken into consideration in the development of helicopter services in the centre of cities.
Meanwhile, the production of and experiments with British helicopters will continue with the utmost urgency. The Minister of Supply has already placed development contracts with three British firms of manufacturers, Bristols, Faireys and Percivals.
To facilitate the projected operation to which I have referred, and so that any helicopter can operate into or across London without permission on each occasion, my right hon. Friend intends forthwith, in accordance with his powers. to give an exemption to helicopters, which will permit them to operate freely over London except over a defined central area, for which permission will still be needed. However, helicopters will not require permission to fly even across central London if they keep to the River Thames. Details will be published tomorrow morning in an official exemption to the Air Navigation Order, 1949.
There remains the problem of an air-stop. I am glad to announce that with the extremely valuable and forthcoming co-operation of the London County Council we have come to an arrangement whereby a site on the South Bank, adjacent to County Hall, will be made available to my Department for any helicopter, civil or military, that wants to come into the centre of London in the immediate future. As from tomorrow such operators will no longer have to obtain prior permission before using this airstop. They will have only to inform my Department the day before the proposed flight is to take place, and we shall arrange for the necessary facilities to be made available. This or some similar arrangement will continue during the period through which we must go before we can obtain the necessary operating experience of the requirements and behaviour of twin-engined helicopters to enable us to decide the location and characteristics of a permanent airstop for London. 1921 As I have said before, the Government cannot contemplate the very considerable expenditure which must be involved in the construction of a permanent air stop until we can be certain what is required in the general interests of all concerned. The arrangements to which I have referred will be quite adequate to enable B.E.A.'s experimental helicopter service carrying fare-paying passengers to operate to and from central London. When the service to and from London Airport begins this site will be open regularly like an ordinary aerodrome. Should this site, which will be used immediately, be required during this interim period by the L.C.C. for building or other purposes we will undertake to find another suitable area to serve central London so that the progress of helicopter operations shall not be impaired.
I hope hon. Gentlemen will feel that this is a step forward which has been planned well in advance, and that further steps such as have been referred to by the hon. Member for Dartford, particularly the training of pilots, are really well under consideration. There are certain schemes being discussed. With regard to the suggestion about using helicopters in the form of flying clubs, we have to remember that they are extremely expensive machines to operate. That is something which can only come about as experience develops and costs are brought down.
The hon. Member raised the question of Mr. Murray who applied to use and fly his home-made helicopter. I yield to no one in my admiration of enterprise, and private enterprise. As soon as we appreciated that Mr. Murray was not seeking a certificate of airworthiness, he was given the permission for which he asked. It has been inferred that we insisted that the aircraft should be tethered and that he wanted to make a free flight. That is totally incorrect. Mr. Murray himself referred to a tethered 1922 flight, and in so doing I presume he had in mind the established practice governing initial helicopter tests, not only here but in the United States. No further request whatsoever has been made to us, but if Mr. Murray wishes later to carry out other tests we shall certainly consider in consultation with the Air Registration Board any application which he may make.
There were many other points raised by the hon. Gentleman. They ranged too widely for me to comment on them all, but there was one final point I wanted to bring out with regard to certain criticism of helicopters used by the Army. I feel that the criticism that the Army is not interested is completely unjustified. We have to remember that the Army owns no aircraft at all. It is not even responsible for ordering them. Responsibility for providing all aircraft, including helicopters, for the support of the Army rests with the Air Ministry. For instance, in Malaya the Army is supported by R.A.F. machines. That does not mean the Army is not keenly interested. It is indeed. But this problem boils down to one of priorities in relation to what can be afforded against the background of the overall requirements of the two Services for all types of aircraft.
I thank the hon. Gentleman again for the enthusiasm which he constantly shows over this matter, and for the opportunity to answer some of his questions. We shall never be 10th to consider anything in public or by private correspondence which he has to offer in the way of advice and help in a problem in which we are all concerned, not only for the future of transportation in this country, but something which is bound to be a valuable export in the future.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter to One o'Clock.