HC Deb 14 July 1954 vol 530 cc458-64
14. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what steps are being taken to train a sufficient number of helicopter pilots to ensure that they are readily available when required.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (Mr. John Profumo)

Sufficient pilots are available to meet the needs of the impending experimental services, and it will be for the operators to take the necessary steps to obtain helicopter pilots for other services as they need them.

Mr. Dodds

Will the Minister state what support is being given by the Government to the enterprising new scheme at Derby for training helicopter pilots? If he cannot yet make a statement upon something which is being considered, will he at least wish this important training scheme every success?

Mr. Profumo

That is one of the matters being considered at the present time, and so long as it is understood that in this case the wish cannot go further than the thought. I agree with the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Dodds

Has any contact been made with the Treasury about possible financial support?

Mr. Profumo

I cannot add anything to what I have already said—that this and other projects of this nature are under consideration.

15. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on what grounds his Department advised the Secretary of State for the Colonies that single-engined helicopters were unsuitable for surveying, spraying and dusting crops, forest fire patrols and for other uses in the Colonies.

Mr. Profumo

No such advice was given. Helicopters are, however, more costly and at present, I think, less suitable than a conventional aircraft for practically all the uses mentioned. Moreover, the operation of single-engined helicopters over rugged terrain involves a risk of a forced landing under conditions which would make search and rescue operations difficult and expensive.

Mr. Dodds

Does not the hon. Member know that a company called Pest Control has done more surveying and spraying of crops in the Colonial Territories than anyone else, and that single-engined helicopters are suitable for this purpose?

Mr. Profumo

If these helicopters are available there is nothing to stop individuals who want to use them from making private contracts for that purpose.

Mr. Nabarro

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is no rugged terrain between Birmingham and London?

Mr. Profumo

That is not the subject of this Question.

19. Sir R. Acland

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation whether he will hold a public inquiry, on a scale comparable to that held about Gatwick Airport, in order to allow interested people and organisations to give their views about the advantage to be gained by reaching Central London more quickly by helicopter as against the disadvantage suffered from extra noise before making irretrievable decisions on the Central London helicopter station.

Mr. Profumo

No, Sir. One of the main advantages of the helicopter is its ability to operate between city centres, but no decisions will be taken on the site ultimately to be selected for the Central London airstop until more experience has been gained of experimental operations.

Sir R. Acland

Will the Minister take into account the fact that, whereas in the case of all the previous main noisemakers, such as trains, trams, and long-distance aeroplanes—

Mr. Shinwell

And the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro).

Sir R. Acland

—the number of people advantaged by the machine has been roughly comparable to the number disadvantaged, with this device, unless we can be sure that we can shut the noise out of the streets, the number of people disadvantaged may be altogether disproportionate to the very small number who will gain, at the most, an extra half an hour or 40 minutes of time? Ought not there to be an inquiry into this matter before any definite decision is made?

Mr. Profumo

No, Sir. I cannot agree with the hon. Baronet. At the same time, however, I should like to say that my right hon. Friend is very conscious of this problem of noise, and the difficulties which it causes to a large number of individuals. The Government are at the present time carrying out investigations into the problem of noise in the hope that we may be able to reduce it. On the other hand, the feature of the helicopter which distinguishes it from all other forms of transport is its ability to operate between city centres. Unless it is allowed to exploit this characteristic it is obviously useless to continue with its development.

Sir R. Acland

What is the use of developing it if people do not want it?

Mr. G. R. Strauss

Before a decision is made and a helicopter station is put in London—if that is the proposal—will some machinery be set up to enable local public opinion to express itself effectively?

Mr. Profumo

I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. He knows as well as I do that one cannot take pieces of land without referring to the local authorities concerned. In answer to the question why we should proceed with the development of the helicopter if people do not want it, I think it is the general view of hon. Members that the development of the helicopter is a matter of the greatest interest to this country.

Mr. H. Morrison

Without prejudice to the general development of the helicopter, is the hon. Gentleman aware that my right hon. Friend's point was related to more than the opinion of local authorities? The individual citizen has feelings upon this matter. Is he aware that this machine has caused inconvenience within the precincts of Parliament itself? Letters of complaint have been received from the London County Council and the wife of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Is it not necessary to have a sense of proportion about the passion for speed in travel? There is a need for some speed in other things, but are not the Government taking into account the fact that the use of this vehicle is very, very limited, the number of people who will make use of it is very small, and the inconvenience to many people trying to get on with their daily work may be considerable?

Mr. Profumo

I cannot accept the entire implications of the right hon. Gentleman, nor do I believe that he intended that I should accept them all. I have already said that we appreciate the inconvenience that may be caused to the public. I have also said that we are doing our best to overcome it and see whether a type of silencer cannot be fitted to helicopters. At the same time, I would point out that a sense of proportion already exists in the matter. During the last whole week, the movements into the South Bank were, last Thursday, two; last Friday, two; and since then, including today, there have been no movements at all.

Mr. Dodds

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that temperamental politicians with Edwardian minds have been content for years that hundreds of thousands of people living near aerodromes should have to put up with much worse noise?

Mr. Profumo

I should not like to enter into an arbitration between the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman, but I am fortified by knowing that in this matter the hon. Gentleman is my hon. Friend.

Mr. Morrison

I am charmed by the intervention of my hon. Friend, and he will be glad to know that he will get a good show in the "Evening Standard."

Mr. Nabarro

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if he accepts the pleas of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison) that will be tantamount to ensuring that technical, scientific aeronautical progress in this respect will pass to the foreigner?

Mr. Profumo

I assure my hon. Friend that I have no intention of being tethered by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This matter has had a very good flight.

Sir R. Acland

As the hon. Gentleman refuses to have any inquiry, I give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

24. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation if he is aware that the noise made by helicopters in landing and take-offs would be considerably reduced if rotor stations were built on stilts above surrounding rooftops in city centres; and what consideration has been given to this aspect for future development.

Mr. Profumo

The reduction of helicopter noise by providing elevated air-stops is one of the possibilities we must take into account when considering particular proposals. However, it should not be assumed that the elevation of an air-stop will provide a significant noise reduction in every instance.

Mr. Dodds

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that three years ago an experiment was made with a helicopter that came from Paris and landed on the roof of Olympia, and that down at ground level there was no noise distinguishable from the noise of the other traffic, and that, therefore, helicopter stations on stilts above the house tops must be the landing grounds of the future?

Mr. Profumo

I do not think we yet know enough about the performance of helicopters to be absolutely certain about that, but we are taking it into consideration.

Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport

In order to offset the noise made by chattering and scratching monkeys, would my hon. Friend undertake to build one of these stations on the top of Transport House?

49. Mr. Grimond

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what conditions single-engined helicopters are now considered safe for licensing for passenger services.

Mr. Profumo

The principal condition is that the route selected should permit a safe landing in the event of engine failure, account being taken of the characteristics of the helicopter, the terrain and the general weather conditions.

Mr. Grimond

Will the Minister bear in mind that my constituents read with admiration of the intrepid voyaging by helicopter both of passengers from London airport and of the Minister of Transport and the Chief of the General Staff and that they would much appreciate an opportunity to share in the dangers of this mode of transport? Is he aware that in many places in my constituency excellent landing areas could be provided—just as good as those in the middle of London?

Mr. Profumo

This is not a landing problem but a problem of the amount of water which has to be crossed in order to reach those parts of the hon. Member's constituency. The more speed we can make with our experiments here, the sooner it will be possible for that part of Britain to share in this great new method of transport.

Mr. Drayson

Can the Minister say whether a landing on the River Thames itself would be considered a safe landing?

Mr. Profumo

We propose to conduct these operations with aircraft with flotation gear, and landing in those conditions will be all right.