HC Deb 25 February 1954 vol 524 cc546-52
12. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many horses were imported from Eire in 1953 and through which English ports; what proportion was inspected by his inspectors on arrival; and how many were condemned as unfit to travel further.

Sir T. Dugdale

According to the latest returns by shipping companies, 7,927 horses were imported from the Irish Republic during 1953. Of these, 3,501 were landed at Fishguard, 3,459 at Holy-head, 830 at Birkenhead, 125 at Glasgow, and 12 at Liverpool. The responsibility for enforcing the Transit of Horses Order rests with local authorities and the police, and I have no information of the number of horses they inspected or with what results. In addition, approximately one quarter were inspected on arrival by my inspectors in the exercise of their genera] supervision of enforcement measures and only five horses were detained as unfit to travel further.

Mr. Chapman

Is the Minister aware that this is a further loophole in the notorious horse slaughter traffic which has still to be stopped up? Is it not the case that there are no provisions at all under the landing orders of 1933 which enable anyone to inspect the knacker horses which come over from Ireland? For a start, could not the right hon. Gentleman extend those orders to include horses?

Sir T. Dugdale

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will await the answer to Question No. 13.

13. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister of Agriculture how many officials are employed to inspect horses arriving at English ports from Ireland; what hours they work; and what arrangements are made to inspect animals arriving during the night and early morning.

17 and 19. Mr. Hastings

asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) what steps he is taking, and what officials he employs, to see that the provisions of the Horses (Sea Transport) Order, 1952, and the Transit of Horses Order, 1951, are enforced;

(2) what facilities exist at the main ports concerned for feeding, watering and stabling horses imported from Ireland, between their landing and their departure by rail.

Sir T. Dugdale

The responsibility for enforcing the Horses (Sea Transport) Order and the Transit of Horses Order rests on local authorities and the police. I have no information of the number of officials they employ on this work. My veterinary officers exercise general supervision. One officer of my Department is employed whole-time to supervise the transport of animals by sea. At all ports there are facilities for watering horses in the landing place. At some ports, there are also facilities for feeding and stabling at the landing place; at others, such facilities are available outside the landing place. I am arranging to secure a full report on the inspection and other arrangements at the ports. I will communicate with the hon. Members when I have received the report and considered it.

Mr. Chapman

Is not the Minister aware that in Birkenhead and Liverpool, which I specifically visited for the purpose last week, it is just no one's responsibility during the hours of darkness to look after these horses on the cargo ships? Is it not time that we had proper regulations, as in the case of cattle, so that officials can inspect these animals and be able to put them in lairage, and the Minister's own responsible officials see them through the docks and on to rail transport?

Sir T. Dugdale

I think the hon. Member will realise from the answer I have given that I am arranging for a full report at the present time. I must wait until I have the report before I can come to any definite conclusions upon it.

Mr. E. Johnson

Will my right hon. Friend consider introducing regulations to prohibit the killing of any horse for one year after it has been imported, except on a veterinary certificate that it is necessary to do so?

Sir T. Dugdale

That is quite a different question, but I will answer it later.

14. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister of Agriculture why six horses, details of which have been sent to him, and which were the subject of a strong report by a veterinary surgeon called in to Southall market on 20th January, were allowed to be landed from Ireland; and what protests have been made to the Irish authorities about these and similar unfit and aged horses which are being sent to this country for slaughter.

Sir T. Dugdale

I understand that these horses were sent to this country for sale for meat. The veterinary report which the hon. Member has been good enough to send me does not indicate that the horses were unfit to travel. Horses coming to this country from Ireland are subject to veterinary examination by the Irish authorities before embarkation, and horses found unfit to travel are not allowed to be shipped. I am always ready to draw the attention of the Irish authorities to any instances where it might appear that horses unfit to travel have been shipped, and they are always ready to investigate these matters. I am making further inquiries into this particular case to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn my attention.

Mr. Chapman

Is not the Minister aware that this veterinary surgeon's report says of one of his own officers in the Department: I consider that exposing animals for sale in this condition in public markets brings discredit upon the authorities who allow such animals to be landed alive. Does not the Minister realise that this must be stopped, and that it is not the only case, because, just before this particular case, three horses had to be slaughtered on arrival at Southall?

Sir T. Dugdale

That is a reason why we shall not allow the matter to remain as it is.

Sir T. Moore

Is it not true that the Departmental regulations issued by the Ministry have been adopted by the Irish authorities in both Northern and Southern Ireland, and that therefore it is surely their responsibility to see that these regulations are enforced?

Hon. Members

How?

Sir H. Williams

Is it not the case that a large number of the horses imported from the Irish Republic are very expensive racehorses and riding animals, as any hon. Member can discover for himself from the Trade and Navigation Returns?

Sir T. Dugdale

There is certainly a very big traffic in valuable bloodstock.

Mr. Pargiter

Is it not a fact that the local authority concerned is placed in a very invidious position by the importation of these horses? Is the Minister aware that it is hardly their fault, and that they should not get the blame because the Minister's officials are not doing their job?

Sir T. Dugdale

I cannot accept that. I think that my staff, in inspecting a quarter of all the horses imported, have done a remarkable job of work.

18. Mr. Hastings

asked the Minister of Agriculture the causes of death in the case of the six horses reported in 1953, under the Horses (Sea Transport) Order, 1952, as casualties in transit.

Sir T. Dugdale

Three died of pneumonia and one of heat stroke. In the other two cases, the nature of the illness is not known.

Mr. Hastings

How many of these horses died mainly as a result of the journey, and how many were so ill when they started that they would have died in that time in any case?

Sir T. Dugdale

There were only six horses altogether, and I have told the hon. Member the reason for their death. Three died of pneumonia and one of heat stroke. In the other cases, the nature of the illness was not specified. One actually came from Singapore.

23 and 24. Mr. Howard Johnson

asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) under which Regulations he is able to control the entry from Ireland of horses for slaughter;

(2) whether he will introduce legislation enabling him to ban the entry from Ireland of aged and diseased horses which suffer from the week of travel involved and which it would therefore be less cruel to have slaughtered in Ireland.

Sir T. Dugdale

I have no power to control the entry into Great Britain of horses from Ireland for slaughter, and I can hold out no hope that the Government will be able to introduce legislation on the lines suggested by the hon. Member.

Mr. Johnson

Is it not possible for the Minister to introduce Regulations, as distinct from legislation? Is he not aware of the tremendous amount of public agitation and deep concern that there is in this country about this vile and filthy trade?

Sir T. Dugdale

From the answers I have given this afternoon, the House will know that I am determined to go much further into the problem. Following upon the Rosebery Report of March, 1950, the Government accepted its recommendation that the slaughter of horses for food should be allowed to continue.

Mr. Hastings

Is the right hon. Gentleman constantly making approaches to the Government of Eire to remind them of their responsibilities hi this matter and asking them in the name of humanity to do something about it?

Mr. Nicholson

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that answers similar to his were given by most of his predecessors for many years, and that public opinion is considerably disturbed because this traffic is repugnant to the feelings of this country? Will he not take further steps? [HoN. MEMBERS: "Answer."]

25. Mr. Howard Johnson

asked the Minister of Agriculture what agreement exists with the Eire Government regarding the horses exported from Eire as fit for work; and if he is aware that these horses are intended for the English knacker and slaughter trade.

Sir T. Dugdale

As regards the first part of the Question, I am not aware of any such agreement. The Government of the Irish Republic have made regulations providing for the veterinary inspection of horses for export at the ports of embarkation to ensure that they are fit to travel. As to the second part, I would remind my hon. Friend that the Government accepted the recommendations of the Rosebery Committee that the slaughter of horses for food should be allowed to continue.

Mr. Johnson

Does not my right hon. Friend think that the time has now come for an agreement to be negotiated with the Government of the Irish Republic? If so, will he use urgent representations to negotiate such an agreement at the earliest possible date?

Sir T. Dugdale

I am not satisfied that the Irish Government have not been paying attention to these regulations up till now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am satisfied that there have come to light certain cases during recent months in which the position is obviously unsatisfactory. I have given a guarantee to the House that I am going into the matter in the greatest possible detail. I hope the House will also bear in mind the point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Crpydon, East (Sir H. Williams), which is a very fair one, that this traffic includes very valuable thoroughbred stock.

Sir R. Aclaiid

Is it not possible to pass regulations that horses which arrive in an unsatisfactory condition shall be confiscated and that any further consignment sent by the same merchant in the next six months shall also be confiscated? Would not that end it?

Sir T. Dugdale

That is the kind of point which has to be examined.