HC Deb 11 February 1954 vol 523 cc1378-82
The Secretary of State for the Colonies(Mr. Oliver Lyttelton)

I should like to report briefly to the House on my visit to Northern Rhodesia.

I made clear before leaving this country that the constitutional changes in Northern Rhodesia which were effected at the end of the year must stand.

During my visit to Lusaka I met the Elected Members of the Legislative Council and the four Members representing African interests. Discussions concerned the changes to be made at the end of the term of the next Legislative Council which will be elected this month. Assuming that this Council runs its full course, no decision affecting elections "can become effective for five years" but study of the complicated problems involved will begin at once. I hope that the Governor will be able, at the right time, to submit to Her Majesty's Government agreed recommendations on the next constitutional advances.

I also met the African Representative Council and certain Paramount Chiefs, and Chiefs with whom I had full discussions on a number of matters, including African land rights and the franchise.

I flew up to the Copper Belt and had informal discussions with the European and African mine workers' leaders and with the general managers of the mining companies. Renewed efforts are being made at a solution of the vexed problem of African advancement in the industry. I have some hopes that an answer will be found, and I am glad to notice that since I left a committee representing the unions, both African and European, and the companies has been formed and is holding its first meeting. I also met Sir Godfrey Huggins and the Governor of Nyasaland, who were good enough to come to Lusaka to meet me. They had encouraging news to give on the way Africans are co-operating in the Federation. The words of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on this subject have no doubt contributed.

There is one further point upon which I should inform the House, though it does not arise directly out of my visit. The House will recall that I undertook in September to consider with the Governor when the time came whether a fifth African Member should be appointed to the Legislative Council as one of the two nominated unofficial Members. Since my return I have received the Governor's considered views on this and have decided that the time for this move is not ripe.

An explanation is necessary. In addition to the four African Members of the Legislative Council, there will be two Members nominated to represent African interests. Of these two, one must sit in Executive Council and in accordance with the September decisions hold a portfolio. I am satisfied that no African is as yet capable of filling this onerous post and that it must for the present be held by a European.

Mr. Moffat, who has represented African interests for so long on Executive Council and Legislative Council, cannot, for family reasons, continue to serve on Executive Council, but he is willing to continue on the Legislative Council. This means that the first nominated Member of the Legislative Council—that is, the one who is to hold the portfolio—must be a European other than Mr. Moffat. This leaves one nominated place in the Legislative Council to be filled. The Governor and I have had to decide whether African interests are best served by appointing an African to this place or retaining the services of Mr. Moffat. We have come to the conclusion that these interests will be best served for the present, and the four African Members most helped, by retaining the services of Mr. Moffat in whom the Africans repose high confidence and who is held in great esteem by all sections of opinion in Northern Rhodesia and in this country.

Mr. J. Griffiths

I should like to join with the Secretary of State for the Colonies in wishing well to these discussions that are taking place in the Copper Belt on African advancement, and to join with him in the hope that agreement will be reached on the best way to meet this very difficult problem.

May I put two or three questions on the Constitution to the right hon. Gentleman? First of all, there will be five years nominally between this election and the next election. What steps will be taken to seek agreement? Will there be interracial discussions, initiated by the Government? I regret that no African has been placed on the Executive Council. As to the appointment of a European, I regret that it cannot be Mr. Moffat, to whose work I pay tribute, but will the appointment of a European be for an interim period so that an African might be appointed for the period between now and the next constitutional change at the end of five years?

Mr. Lyttelton

There is no bar to an interim appointment being made if Mr. Moffat's term of office does not run for five years. With regard to constitutional questions and inter-racial discussions, I expressed the hope that an agreed solution could be forthcoming. What is first necessary is that the Government of Northern Rhodesia, in consultation with Her Majesty's Government, should try to formulate a scheme for discussions relating to the franchise, which is a particularly difficult matter. Then, of course, if an agreed solution is to be reached, that scheme will have to be a matter for discussion inter-racially in Northern Rhodesia.

Mr. Griffiths

Do I gather that any such proposals which may be put forward would be put forward on a tentative basis and would be subject to discussion, amendment and improvement, and would not be put forward as final?

Mr. Lyttelton

The matter is very complicated in present circumstances and, as I have indicated, the first requirement is for the Northern Rhodesia Government to formulate a scheme for discussion between the races.

Miss Lee

Do I understand that there is no absolute bar to the appointment of an African in the next five years if there is a vacancy and a suitable African is available? Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why his statement today should be so much less encouraging than his statement yesterday on Nigeria? Are we to deduce from that fact that where there is a large population of white settlers it is more difficult for native people to make headway than in places where they themselves are in the majority?

Mr. Lyttelton

The hon. Lady's deductions are quite wrong. The conditions in Northern Rhodesia and the political progress of Africans in Northern Rhodesia are quite different from conditions in Northern Nigeria. Everybody who knows the countries knows that to be so. Mr. Moffat's appointment would ordinarily run for the life of the Legislature. If he wished to resign or it appeared to him desirable to do so, there is no bar to another appointment being made.

Mr. Griffiths

I do not ask for a reply now, but since this is a long period, would the right hon. Gentleman consider making an interim appointment of a European to the Executive Council so that if the time should come within the five years when another appointment had to be made, that appointment could be made without the present Member or any other Member having to resign?

Mr. Lyttelton

We are in consultation with Mr. Moffat. I cannot give any assurance, but he is a very public-spirited man and has African interests at heart. If he thought that there was a suitable man who could discharge the duties as well as or better than he could do, I am sure that he would retire in his favour.

Mr. Fenner Brockway

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the disappointment of many of us today is as severe as our congratulations yesterday were sincere? Does he really think that to give two million Africans four representatives in the Legislative Council against 12 European representatives for 40,000 people is the way to obtain co operation in Central Africa? Will he not reconsider the matter?

Mr. Lyttelton

The hon. Member persists in regarding constitutions and political progress as matters of arithmetic. They are not. The plain fact is that one cannot proceed to give representation in proportion to numbers of population without retarding the whole progress of the country. That is the problem of what advances in the constitution and what alteration in the franchise are appropriate. The hon. Member persists in neglecting the difficulties of the problem, if I may say so.

Mr. Fenner Brockway

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take the first opportunity of raising this matter in the House.