HC Deb 10 February 1954 vol 523 cc1147-56
31. Mr. Lindgren

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation how far it is the policy of his Department to permit the Air Corporations to offer charter services on any route.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

As I have previously informed the House, the chairmen of the Air Corporations have undertaken not to maintain aircraft specifically for charter work, which has always been recognised as the domain of the independent companies and only incidental to the main business of the Corporations as operators of scheduled services. Subject to the limitations which this principle implies, the Corporations are free to tender for charter work including ad hoc trooping operations. The Corporation chairmen recently informed me that they did not understand that charter work included trooping, but I see no reason to modify long established Government policy in this respect.

Mr. Lindgren

If that is so, can the Minister say why he approved, and the Corporation have ordered, special aircraft for freight traffic?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

When the Corporation applied to me, I think in February, 1953, for permission to buy five Britannias, I made it plain in the correspondence from my Department to them that this was on the basis that they realised that they had a commercial use in mind for the aircraft, and that all applications for new freight routes would have to go to the A.T.A.C.

Mr. Lindgren

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how special freight aircraft which cost £800,000 apiece can be used on other than charter or freight services?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

It is for the Corporation to make up their minds on commercial considerations. I never left them in any doubt as to the position, which is precisely the same as it was under the Socialist Administration, when all trooping contracts were placed by competitive tender, a thing that could not have been done had these been regarded as scheduled operations.

Mr. Callaghan

When B.O.A.C. told the right hon. Gentleman about their intention to purchase these Britannia aircraft, did they indicate where they hoped to use them?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

To the best of my recollection they said that they proposed to buy five Britannias, and I am not sure whether they said they had in mind further operations in the Atlantic or not; but I know that in my letter to them I made it quite plain that they would have to apply to the A.T.A.C. like anybody else for any freight route other than their existing one to Singapore.

32. Mr. Lindgren

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what detailed programmes of new services have been submitted to him by independent air transport companies.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The detailed programmes of independent air transport companies for new air services take the form of applications to the Air Transport Advisory Council which are advertised in the national Press.

Mr. Lindgren

In view of that answer, can the Minister say what was the implication behind thestatement made to my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick), in answer to a supplementary question last week, when the right hon. Gentleman said that he was prepared to consider programmes submitted to him by a charter company?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I have made it perfectly plain that I do not consider these applications unless and until they are recommended to me for provisional approval by the A.T.A.C. There is a later Question on the Order Paper dealing with internal services, but I am not sure whether or not it will be reached. From the early days, when consideration has been given to the possibility of handing over internal routes to private operators in the United Kingdom, I have been prepared to consider that in advance of any such applications, because that was outside the purview of the A.T.A.C. With regard to A.T.A.C. applications, I have no advance knowledge of any application.

Mr. Beswick

The Minister made a specific reference to a detailed programme from this particular company. Will he say why he is prepared to accept a detailed programme from this company before it is submitted to the Air Transport Advisory Council?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

There are three stages in this operation, first, the approach to A.T.A.C.; secondly, their recommendation to me together with backing from the country to which they are to go, and, thirdly, after all that, they come back with detailed plans for the route already granted to them, and I look at safety and other angles as well as, once again, at the provisional recommendation.

Mr. Lindgren

Does the Minister deny that through his Department promises have been given to charter companies on specific routes?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

Most certainly. If the hon. Gentleman is trying to suggest that there has been something underhand in my conduct of this business, then I hope that he will prevail on his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench to put down a Motion on the Order Paper for the reduction of my salary.

33. Mr. Lindgren

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what circumstances he is consulted before new aircraft are purchased by the Air Corporations.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I am in constant touch with the chairmen of both Corporations at all stages during the development of new types of aircraft. They seek my approval before placing production orders for aircraft to be used in their operational fleets.

Mr. Lindgren

In view of that answer, can the Minister say why he approved the purchase of the five Britannias while, at the same time, denying the Corporation the operational use for them?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

When they asked me if they could buy five Britannias I said, "Yes, provided (1) you are satisfied that there is a commercial use for them, and (2) you realise that you will have to go to the A.T.A.C. for permission to operate on any new freight route.

Mr. Ernest Davies

Is it not a fact that the Minister prevented the commercial use of these planes which he had authorised by giving the contract to Air-work and denying it to B.O.A.C.?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

That, again, is wholly wrong. The chairman of the Corporation agreed with me to hold off for one year.

Mr. Davies

But under pressure.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

He gave me an undertaking that they would hold off for one year. I think that the sooner we have the debate the more interesting and the more surprising it will be from all points of view. The Corporation gave me an undertaking to hold off for one year until last July, since when they have been as free as anybody else. They announced in a Press statementin February last their intention to apply for a freight route. They have not done so, though there have been many months since when they were entirely free to make application.

Mr. H. Morrison

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that he sanctioned the Britannia aircraft on the understanding that there would be no commercial use for them? Will he say whether the chairman voluntarily offered the 12 months'standstill arrangement or whether the right hon. Gentleman asked them to agree to that standstill arrangement? Finally, will he take it from me that there is a lot to be said, not merely for a reduction of his salary—[Hon. Members: "Question."] Hon. Members do not understand Parliamentary business. I am asking the Minister. Will he take it from me that there is a lot to be said, in view of his general conduct regarding the backing up of private interests as against public interests, not merely for a reduction in his salary, but for its complete abolition?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think I would be most unwise to take anything of any kind from the right hon. Gentleman, except to follow scrupulously the policy of the Labour Government in regard to air trooping. In this case, I left it to the commercial discretion of a socialised industry set up by the party opposite to decide whether, in the light of my warning conveyed in correspondence, they wished to go ahead with the purchase of the Britannias. As to their undertaking to hold back for one year, I announced it at the time in this House. I have never disguised anything at all. I asked them to do it—of course they did not volunteer—and they agreed.

Mr. Callaghan

Will the Minister say, in view of the fact that Sir Miles Thomas has said that he has received no encouragement since the end of the 12 months'period to apply for a licence, and as this was reproduced in the public Press last week, whether that implies or is meant to imply that the Minister has used some persuasion upon him to make him refrain from applying for a licence?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

That is wholly untrue. I have used no such persuasion of any kind. If it would be improper for me to try to encourage a private operator to apply for a particular route, it would be equally improper for me to do the same in the case of the Corporation.

Mr. Langford-Holt

On a point of order. Are we now to understand, Mr. Speaker, that if at Question time we preface a statement, whether party political or otherwise, with the words, "Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me," that automatically becomes a question?

Mr. Speaker

The question to which the hon. Member refers is interrogative. The answer can always be "No."

34. Mr. Beswick

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to what extent it is within the policy of his Department to consider new proposals of air services from private firms before such proposals have been submitted to the Air Transport Advisory Council.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

When considering the United Kingdom internal network, I was prepared to consider such schemes so as to help the United Kingdom taxpayer. Apart from this the answer is "None, Sir."

Mr. Beswick

The Minister made a specific statement in the House to the effect that he was prepared to consider a detailed programme from this firm. Does that mean that he is prepared to consider it before it is agreed with the Air Transport Council, and, if not, will he say since when the Air Transport Advisory Council has been empowered to consider any agreement which involves not only a new route, but price-fixing on other routes?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think that the sooner we start up a school of rudimentary facts on air transport, the more helpful it will be for everybody. The detailed technical examination follows after and not before the approval by the A.T.A.C.

Mr. Beswick

Is the Minister trying to tell me that in the directive to the Air Transport Advisory Council there is any statement which says that they can consider an agreement which compels the Corporation to maintain a price rate higher than that which the Corporation would otherwise maintain?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

That is quite another matter; it does not arise in the least out of this.

35. Mr. Ernest Davies

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation the result of the consultations he had with the chairman of British Overseas Airways Corporation in regard to the operation of an all-freight service by Airwork on the North Atlantic route; and what undertakings he received from the former in regard thereto.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I have had a number of consultations with the chairman of B.O.A.C. and the Chairman of Airwork. The two chairmen told me that they would consider the possibilities of co-operation in the national interest in the development of their respective North Atlantic services. This is the only undertaking I have received.

Mr. Davies

Will the Minister give an assurance to the House that during these consultations he has in no way exercised influence, persuasion or pressure on B.O.A.C. to get them to agree that they will not engage in the all-freight North Atlantic service, and that he has not in any way given preference to Airwork in that respect?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I can give that complete assurance as from July, 1953. in regard to the persuasion of the Corporation, and absolutely for all time in regard to Airwork.

Dr. Bennett

Can my right hon. Friend tell me to what extent these two firms are likely to provide services which are competitive with each other?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think it is true to say that they are complementary rather thancompetitive. The primary function of B.O.A.C., as has been repeatedly said by Lord Pakenham and previous Ministers, is to develop passenger and mail services. I regard the field of freight as being primarily the function of private operators.

Mr. Callaghan

Can the Minister tell us why he thinks that freight is the private right of private air companies? Can I ask him, further, whether the agreement between the Corporation and the private enterprise firm to co-operate in the national interest means that they are going to keep out of each other's way on various routes, and are entering into an agreement of that sort?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I never referred to the question of rights. No one has any rights in the matter, except the right of application to the A.T.A.C. I am at a loss to understand why hon. Members opposite are so disturbed by some new vigour being introduced into air operations.

Sir T. Moore

As it is apparent that further information may be required on this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment.

36. Mr. Ernest Davies

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation what assurances have been given to Air-work in regard to their exclusive operation of an all-freight service on the North Atlantic route.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

None, Sir.

40. Mr. Beswick

asked the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation under what procedure the House has been informed of the proposed agreement, embodying new principles of policy, between the British Overseas Airways Corporation and Airwork Limited.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I know of no proposed agreement between British Overseas Airways Corporation and Airwork Limited which embodies new principles of policy on which the House should be informed. I asked the chairmen to explore together the possibility of a working arrangement, but any agreement reached between these airlines would be confined to co-operation in commercial matters within the framework of the Government's air transport policy as already disclosed to Parliament.

Mr. Beswick

If there has been no pressure and if, in this case, there is not even a tacit understanding—and all that has happened is that the Minister has asked the chairman of the Corporation to explore the possibilities together with the chairman of the private company—will the Minister be good enough to tell the House why it is that in this agreement all the concessions are made by the public Corporation? What advantage is to follow to the public Corporation? [Hon. Members: "How do you know?"] The Minister gave us details last week. Will he tell his hon. Friends whether it is true that all the concessions are to be made by the public Corporation? Cart he say what incentive or motivation has been given to the Corporation to make all these concessions, voluntarily, to a private company?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

That is a very long supplementary question, based on a complete misunderstanding. No agreement has been reached. I have heard nothing from either side that agreement has been reached. If the hon. Member will refer tothe statement I made last week, he will see that it deals with quite another matter.

Mr. Nabarro

Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that he will do nothing that might inhibit in any way the legitimate development of private enterprise charter air companies?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd indicated assent

.

Mr. H. Morrison

The Minister having given the assurance—by a nod—that he will give special regard—[Hon. Members: "No."] Yes. that was the question—to the interests of private enterprise, may I ask the Minister whether it is not his duty, among others, to see that there is reasonable and equitable fair play between public and other interests?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I have often heard the right hon. Gentleman twist something rather quickly, but never quite so fast as that. My hon. Friend asked for an assurance that I would do nothing to inhibit the development of private enterprise. He did not ask for an assurance that I would give it special protection.

Mr. Shinwell

Since the right hon. Gentleman has now reached the end of his Questions, may I ask him whether he regards his responsibilities as being concerned with public interest, or does he disclose in his administration a bias in favour of private enterprise?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I take it that the right hon. Gentleman's intervention is in the field of private enterprise on his front bench, and not on behalf of the Corporation. I consider my duty to be to get private enterprise and the Corporations to work together for the goodof the people who really matter—the travelling public.

Several Hon. Members rose

—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We have wasted too much time on this matter.

Hon Members

No.

Mr. Callaghan

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. In my opinion this is a big subject, which ought to be raised on a Supply Day. We cannot deal with it at Question time, by Question and answer.

Mr. Callaghan

On a point of order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, with all due deference, so that we may be guided in the future, if you will indicate which of our Questions you consider were a waste of time in relation to this subject?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member has no right to put words into my mouth. I never suggested that it was any waste of time. What I said was that the House had been a long time on these Questions. If I inadvertently used the word "waste"I did not apply it to any particular Member or Question. There was probably a misunderstanding about that. I suggested that, in the interests of the House and the elucidation of the Question which hon. Members are discussing, the time of the House would be better employed on a debate on the Estimates and not in Questions.

Mr. Ernest Davies

In view of your statement that the House would employ its time better in a debate on a Supply Day, may I be allowed to ask the Leader of the House whether he will grant time for a debate on this matter?

Mr. Speaker

The allocation of subjects on a Supply Day is in the hands of the Opposition.