HC Deb 23 October 1953 vol 518 cc2300-2
Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas

I beg to move, in page 8, line 7, to leave out: the interest mentioned in that subsection, and to insert: a German enemy interest. Here again, this matter was fully covered in Committee. Our proposals are directed to dealing with hardships where a neutral, allied or even a British subject might lose a right of action for infringement and even have the interests in copyright extinguished. This results from what seemed to us to be the unnecessarily wide terms of the Clause. We recognise that we must have a Clause like this to provide a proper indemnity for those who obviously should be indemnified. The Amendment is tabled to find out the result of the deliberations of the Government on the matters which we put before them during the Committee stage.

Mr. Janner

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. H. Strauss

I rise with the hesitation imposed on me by the extreme complexity of this very difficult Clause, because I am not the great expert on copyright that my hon. and learned Friend is who dealt with this subject on the last occasion. I would respond to the hon. and learned Gentleman's request by saying that we have looked into this matter most carefully and are convinced that this Clause is not too wide and must stay.

I will give only a few facts in amplification of what I said in the Committee stage. The House must be aware of the great amount of information and copyright material that was collected by what is generally called B.I.O.S. after the end of the fighting. In fact they went out in the wake of the Army. That was made available to British industrialists. I could quote at length if necessary, but I think the House will take it from me that the late Sir Stafford Cripps, in a speech of which I have notes here, urged industry generally to inspect and make use of all this material. Industry was urged to use it energetically for reconstruction after the war.

It would be intolerable if those who responded to that Government invitation, which was very much in the public interest—there is no party point on that; we all agree that it was a good thing—were placed at risk by actions now or hereafter. It is impossible to avoid this without the extinguishment of the copyright. As the hon. and learned Member put a point to me outside this House which, in order to save time, he was good enough not to repeat this morning, perhaps I might add a few words about it. It is true that in the case of property properly treated as enemy property within the meaning of the Clause and removed from Germany, the saving in Subsection 3 (b) will not assist the case mentioned on another occasion. But that subsection will be of real effect in saving the British or allied interest in cases coming under Clause 6 (1, a). In those cases the said interest shall be deemed to have been extinguished. Subsection 3 (6) will be effective in protecting the remaining interest in certain cases which come within Subsection 1 (a), but not I agree in the case of property rightly treated as enemy property which has been removed from Germany. I think I have explained to the hon. and learned Gentleman why on reconsideration we cannot go further than the Clause goes, and I have taken the opportunity also to answer another conundrum which he put to me.

Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas

Again I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his explanation. I appreciate the difficulties the Government are in over this Clause. I say at once that it is not part of our case, and never has been, that the fullest indemnity should not, to be given to all these people who have, on Government invitation, in effect taken part in the infringement of copyright. We are completely at one on that. We are concerned that in this Clause rights in copyright are abolished—rights in copyright of perfectly innocent people who may be of neutral, allied or British nationality——

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. and learned Gentleman is not entitled to make a second speech. This is the Report stage of a Bill which was considered in Committee of the whole House. I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman was rising to take a certain course.

Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas

Perhaps I might be allowed to ask the Minister what provision there is for ex gratia compensation for British, allied and neutral perfectly innocent people whose rights are taken away by this Clause.

Mr. H. Strauss

I can speak again only by leave of the House. On the question of ex gratia payments, I cannot add anything to what was said by my right hon. Friend earlier.

Sir L. Ungoed-Thomas

I regret that, but I do not want to pursue the matter further. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.