Clause 1.—(GRANT FOR DEVELOPMENT OF POSTAL, TELEGRAPHIC AND TELEPHONIC SYSTEMS AND OTHER POST OFFICE BUSINESS.) (Hansard, 19 November 1953)

§ Mr. Ness Edwards (Caerphilly)
There are two points I want to raise of which I gave the Assistant Postmaster-General notice in our Second Reading debate. As I understand it, of this money which is to be raised, £116 million is reserved for the telephone service. Of that £116 million, £30 million is for defence works, and £625,000 is for radio links or links between television stations. What I am concerned about, and what I should like to have some satisfaction about, is how this money for defence works is to be paid back to the Post Office.
Speaking from recollection, £60 million has been spent now on defence work, and one sees no entry in the commercial accounts of any method whereby this money is paid back. I know that the hon. Gentleman has said on previous occasions that the Service Departments are treated like ordinary subscribers, but there is no method by which one can treat many of these defence works as one would treat an ordinary subscriber. There is no parallel for this type of work, and as this money has to be borne entirely by the Post Office, and they have to pay interest charges on this money, we ought to know how repayment is made to the Post Office of this very large sum of money.
The second point concerns the £625,000 of this money which is to be devoted to linking up television stations. I think we are entitled to know whether this is for the B.B.C. or whether it is for the commercial television stations the building of which is envisaged during the period when this money is being spent. If it is only for the B.B.C., I agree that it means 1919 that the Government are not making provision for expenditure on similar links in linking up the proposed new stations. Perhaps the Assistant Postmaster-General will give us some help in this matter.
As I understand it, there are to be three commercial television stations, one in London, one in Birmingham, and one in Manchester. Are these to be linked by the expenditure of this money? Are they to be linked by radio links or coaxial cables? If they are to be linked in that way, on what terms is the proposed new corporation going to reimburse the Post Office for this expenditure? Those are the two points on which I think we are entitled to have an explanation before we pass this Bill and authorise the Government to have this money.

§ The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans)
As to the first point raised by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to defence expenditure, as he quite rightly said approximately a quarter of this sum will be spent on defence. This is a lesser percentage than last time, when it was approximately a third, and we anticipate that the percentage which goes on defence will taper off from now on. The right hon. Gentleman asked how this was to be paid back. The answer is that there is no difference at all in the procedure as compared with that of the days when the right hon. Gentleman was at the Post Office. What it comes down to is that the Service Departments pay full rent just like an ordinary subscriber for these services.
What the right hon. Gentleman has in mind, and what was in the minds of his hon. Friends last week, was that if this expenditure is for defence, why should it not be borne on the Defence Vote? The answer is that that has never been done, not even in the right hon. Gentleman's days. The reason is that the cables and other facilities which are provided are part of the general telecommunications service of the whole country. The right hon. Gentleman might have asked whether we would have put the cables in these places if they were not for defence. The answer is "Yes" in some places and "No" in others, but we have no reason to suppose that, taken over a reasonable period, these links will not form a useful part of our telecommunications service. 1920 It is exactly like any other form of expenditure; the Service Departments pay an ordinary rental for the service we provide for them, exactly as if they were private subscribers.
The right hon. Gentleman also referred to television links. The total sum involved is about £650,000. To a certain extent, the figure must be tentative at this stage. It is the sum of money that we assume may well be spent over the next two years. A large part of it is in connection with the extensions to the B.B.C. service which are already envisaged, and I can give the right hon. Gentleman some figures which may be of interest to him.
The most expensive link will be that with Aberdeen, which is estimated to cost £130,000. It will be a radio link. The radio link with the Isle of Wight will cost £75,000. The new link between Alexandra Palace and the Crystal Palace when the London station is moved there will be a cable link, and the sum involved will be £44,000. There is also £52,000 for a cross-Channel link. The B.B.C. hope increasingly to be able to pick up programmes from Europe. There is also provision in the sum for a radio link to East Anglia. The East Anglian station is not yet approved, but we have promised that when the next programme of B.B.C. extension comes along it will have priority. There are then some small sums for Belfast and Newcastle.
About £80,000 is to be used to strengthen the links between Manchester and Holme Moss, and Birmingham and Sutton Coldfield, so that if the B.B.C. is ultimately allowed to give a second programme, the facilities will be provided. Then there is a very large sum of money, more than £100,000, which accounts for most of the balance, and this will be used for strengthening the main co-axial cable which goes up through the centre of the country to Scotland. Incidentally, that can be used for the telephone service, or, if the B.B.C. has a second programme, for television.
On the specific point about the capital expenditure on Post Office links relating to the commercial proposals of the Government, no decision has yet been made about where the station will be, but on the assumption which the right hon. Gentleman put forward that they may be in London, Birmingham and Manchester, 1921 so far as we can see now, no additional capital expenditure on Post Office links, except for a very small sum, will be required.

§ Mr. Ness Edwards
Do I understand that the present links are adequate to provide new channels if a commercial network programme is desired?

§ Mr. Gammans
That is so if we assume that they are in the places mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, but I should be forestalling not only debates in this House but also the formation of the new corporation, whose views on the matter must be taken into account, if I were to give a definite assurance that they will be in those places.