HC Deb 16 November 1953 vol 520 cc1379-88
15. Sir T. Moore

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what it would cost to give all old-age pensioners an equivalent increase to their pensions to compensate for the increase in the cost of food since the present Government took office.

The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. Osbert Peake)

The increase made in the standard rates of retirement pensions in 1952 is more than equivalent to the increase in the Interim Index of Retail Prices caused by the rise in food prices since the Government took office.

Sir T. Moore

Does not that answer make nonsense of the declaration made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Fulham, West (Dr. Summerskill), that the next Socialist Government, if it ever came into office, would increase pensions to compensate for the increased cost of food?

Mr. Peake

Certainly.

Dr. Summerskill

As the right hon. Gentleman has carefully explained to the House that he has related his answer to the Index of Retail Prices for food, which contains things like ice cream and tinned fruit, will he now answer his hon. Friend by relating his reply to rationed foods?

Mr. Peake

I think that that point of the right hon. Lady's was blown to smithereens in last week's debate.

Mr. Ross

Do I understand the Minister to say that his answer was related to the standard rate of pensions? Is he aware that of 4½ million pensioners, 165,000—less than 4 per cent.—got the full increase in the standard rate?

Mr. Peake

Even those who only got the smaller increase last October, because they had already had a rise in the previous October, were fully compensated for the increase in the price of food.

16. Miss Burton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware that many old age pensioners cannot meet the increased cost of food and fuel, particularly during the winter months; and if he will therefore ask the National Assistance Board to investigate this particular point immediately, in order to ascertain whether or not their estimate of 35s. plus rent on which a pensioner must manage is feasible today.

Mr. Peake

The National Assistance Board, who, without any prompting from me, keep a close watch on the adequacy of the scale rates, point out that the cost of living has risen very little since the rate she mentions was raised from 30s. to 35s.

Miss Burton

Is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House wish that he would stop dodging this issue, because this is a serious point of principle? Is he aware that the facts stated in the Question are correct and that the cost of food did rise before pensions were increased? How does the right hon. Gentleman expect old age pensioners to be able to meet the increase when they have not had an increase in their pensions?

Mr. Peake

The Question deals with the scales in payment of the National Assistance Board. If we compare the position of persons on Assistance throughout the last 15 months with their position in the last 15 months of the Socialist Government, we find that a single person receives 9s. a week more and a married couple 15s. 6d. a week more. These increases are of the proportion of 35 per cent. and are more than double the rise in the price of food or fuel taken alone.

Dr. Summerskill

With all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, is that not a little deceptive? Does that include discretionary allowances? As the right hon. Gentleman knows, during the last two or three years we have encouraged people to ask for discretionary allowances, which is an entirely different matter from supplementary allowances for ordinary current expenses.

Mr. Peake

The rates that I have mentioned are the standard scale rates. It is true that in about one-third of all the cases even higher rates are given by the Assistance Board, but the rates which I have stated are the scale rates, and the fact remains that persons on assistance are considerably better off than at any previous time in our history.

17. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what action he proposes to take to deal with the situation that has arisen in which many old age pensioners are being deprived of necessities because of the inadequacy of the present pension and National Assistance scales.

42. Mr. Shurmer

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he is aware of the distress and privations now being borne by old age pensioners, owing to the rising cost of living; and what proposals he has to make which will ease their burdens.

Mr. Peake

I will answer these Questions by referring hon. Members to the replies given to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds) and the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 9th November.

Mr. Dodds

As it is obvious that the right hon. Gentleman is genuinely unaware of the hard facts of distress among old-age pensioners, may I ask him, if he really wants to get down to the problem, whether he will accept my invitation to visit some old-age pensioners living in the Dartford division, not very far from here, where he will find some who cannot even afford to get their boots and shoes repaired? Will he do that?

Mr. Peake

No, Sir. I have plenty of old-age pensioners in my own constituency. Here again, these facts ought to be known. In the last 12 months retirement pensioners have been receiving—single 6s. 6d. a week, and married 12s. a week, more than they got during the last 12 months of the Socialist Government. These are increases of 25 per cent. The House ought also to know that by September, 1951, the original 1946 rates of 26s. single and 42s. married had fallen in value to 20s. 4d. single and 32s. 10d. married.

24 and 26. Mr. Lewis

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) whether, to offset in some measure the rise in the cost of living, particularly with regard to foodstuffs, he will take steps to double immediately all pensions and allowances made to those in receipt of State assistance;

(2) whether, in view of the general rise in the cost of living, particularly with regard to the basic foodstuffs, he will arrange to increase all old age pensions, National Health and National Insurance benefits to offset this rise in the cost of living for those in receipt of State benefits.

Mr. Peake

No, Sir. I do not think that any adjustment in rates of pension or benefit under the National Insurance scheme is called for by any change in the Interim Index of Retail Prices since the current rates were fixed in June, 1952.

Mr. Lewis

Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the official statement by the Ministry of Labour that for food alone the cost has gone up by 5 per cent. in the last year? In view of the fact that there has been no increase in any of these rates during the last year, will not he do something at least to offset this 5 per cent. rise in the cost of food?

Mr. Peake

If the hon. Gentleman thinks that he has seen a figure of 5 per cent., I am afraid he is mistaken, because the increase in the cost of food over the last year has been only 2.1 per cent.

Captain Pilkington

Can the Minister say whether the allowances were doubled under the Socialist Government, when the cost of living rose far more sharply?

25. Mr. Lewis

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether, in view of the rise in the cost of living generally and the price of food in particular, he is aware that many old age pensioners cannot afford to take their basic rations; and, as a means of enabling this section of the population to enjoy the Christmas season, he will arrange that in the week preceding Christmas all pensions will be worth double that printed on the pension order book.

Mr. Peake

No, Sir.

Mr. Lewis

Cannot something be done to help those in most urgent need to enjoy the festive season? In view of the fact that Members on both sides of the House and people in the country generally feel that something should be done for these old people, cannot he agree that, in this instance, a Christmas gift such as this should be given?

Mr. Peake

All I can say is that none of my predecessors in this Ministry took occasion to celebrate Christmas in this way. After all, this is an insurance scheme and not a Christmas gift fund.

27. Mr. Janner

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware of the growing anxiety of old age pensioners in their efforts to live on their retirement pensions of 32s. 6d. per week; how this pension compares in real value with the 30s. per week when the Government took office; and whether he will propose a further increase in view of the increased prices in butter, cheese and fats, following their contemplated derationing.

Mr. Peake

No, Sir. I would remind the hon. Member that when the present Government took office the standard rate of pension for people attaining minimum pension age after 1st October, 1951, was 26s. Compared with this figure the real value of the current rate is considerably higher: compared with 30s. it is one penny less.

Mr. Janner

Is the Minister suggesting that the increased price of the commodities which I have mentioned do not affect the old age pensioners to an extent which makes it impossible for them to obtain these rationed foods? Will he also let us know whether, when derationing of these commodities takes place, he proposes to increase the rate? Will he also take into consideration the fact that his Government are, in addition, raising the rents of these poor people?

Mr. Peake

We had better wait and see what happens when these goods are derationed.

Mr. Hastings

Will the right hon. Gentleman forget for a moment what was happening two or three years ago and give his mind to whether 32s. 6d. a week is sufficient to allow these old people to obtain the food and other necessities which they so much need, bearing in mind that while old people need less food in quantity in some cases they need very special types of food? In addition, there is the fact that household renewals and clothes have to be purchased out of the 32s. 6d.

Mr. Peake

Those persons for whom the pension is insufficient, with their other resources, can and do go to the National Assistance Board.

Dr. Summerskill

In view of the statement made both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Food last Tuesday, when they said that they did not know how derationing would turn out, will the Minister say at what stage he will act in order to avert great hardship?

Mr. Peake

No, Sir. I would only point out that the pension of 32s. 6d. today is a great deal better than the 20s. 4d., which was the value of the pension of 26s. two years ago.

Mr. Jay

The Minister keeps quoting the figure of 26s., but does he not know perfectly well that in the Budget of 1951 it was increased to 30s.?

Mr. Peake

The increase was for only a limited class of pensioner, and it came into force 10 days after the Leader of the Opposition had announced an immediate General Election.

43 and 45. Mr. McKay

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) why, when he is considering the necessary increase to maintain the purchasing power of National Insurance benefits, he compares the present cost of living with 1948, when the retirement pensions were paid in 1946 and the rest of the insurance benefits to be paid were registered in the Act passed in 1946;

(2) if he is aware that there was an increase of approximately 16 per cent. in the cost of living between 1946 and 1948; and why aged pensioners do not get this percentage.

Mr. Peake

I have never claimed that we have restored the purchasing power of National Insurance pensions and benefits to the level of 1946. What we have done is something the previous Government failed to do, and that is to take note of the extent to which purchasing power had deteriorated under their administration since the Act came into force in 1948 and make that good for all retirement pensioners irrespective of when they reached pension age, as well as for the sick and unemployed.

Mr. McKay

Would the Minister tell me how it is that we were able to pay the appropriate level of retirement pensions in 1946 if the Act was not then operating? If they were paid at that level in 1946, how is it logical that the difference between that level and the present level does not equal the cost of living?

Mr. Peake

I quite agree that we have not yet got back to the 1946 level. In two years the Conservative Government have been able to make good the damage done in the last three years of the Socialist Government. Possibly if we stay here for another two years we shall be able to make good all the damage done in the whole six years.

Mr. Jay

Is the Minister's case so bad that he has to falsity history? Does he not know that the increase in pensions in 1951 was announced in the Budget speech of April of that year and applied to the great majority of pensioners? Is he further aware that it came into force as soon as practicable in the light of the opinion available from the administrative experts?

Mr. Peake

The fact remains that it came into operation after the present Leader of the Opposition had announced the General Election, and about three weeks before polling day.

Mr. McKay

Is the Minister not aware that when he paid the extra benefit for the retirement pensioners in 1946 he was admitting the principle, as the whole Government of that time and Governments since then have admitted the principle, that it was legal to do so? The point is that all the other benefits were fixed at the same time and, when we consider the cost of living, ought we not to consider it at the time when all these benefits were under consideration and when the amount of pension to be paid was decided?

Mr. Peake

I think that the answer to that supplementary appears in the answer to the next Question which the hon. Member has on the Paper.

44. Mr. McKay

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance why the increased benefits for sickness and unemployment were not paid in 1946 at the same time as increased retirement pensions were paid.

Mr. Peake

No inside information is, I regret, at my disposal to enable me to give plausible explanations of the actions of my Socialist predecessors.

Mr. Manuel

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since the present Government came into power they have given presents to the brewers, the road hauliers and the steel barons? Cannot he now try to get the Cabinet to do something for the old age pensioners?

Mr. Peake

I have already done something.

46 and 47. Miss Burton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (1) whether he is aware that, while retirement pensions were increased in June of last year, food prices rose by 8.7 per cent. from January to June, 1952; and what investigations have been made by his Department to ascertain the effect upon those people dependent upon their pension;

(2) the result of the investigations conducted by him to ascertain the primary needs of old people in receipt of retirement pensions.

Mr. Peake

It has always been the practice to use the recognised cost of living or retail prices index when considering adjustments in National Insurance benefits and pensions and I have not made any special inquiry on the lines mentioned by the hon. Member.

Miss Burton

Does not the Minister think it time that he and other Ministers ceased comparing the work done by various Governments? [Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite seem to think that funny; the country does not. Is the Minister aware that the basic point is whether or not the old people can manage today, not whether they could manage some years ago? Is he not aware that old people need three things—food, fuel and light; and will he not agree that the cost of those three things has risen far beyond the increase in their pensions?

Mr. Peake

The short answer to the hon. Lady is that as far as I know there has never been a time when the pension alone has been sufficient for the needs of the average pensioner. Three pensioners out of four, however, have other resources, and those who have not other resources can and do go to the National Assistance Board. Scales are higher today than they have ever been in history.

Mrs. Braddock

Is the Minister aware that old people cannot understand the comments which are being made by the Government? Will he seriously consider the advisability of presenting to the old people a White Paper in an endeavour to make them understand that we, on both sides, are living in the same world, because the old people have decided that hon. Members opposite are not living in the same world as they are?

Mr. Peake

I think the old people probably realise that Conservative performance is better than Socialist promise.