§ 5. Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health the charges made for day nursery accommodation per week in Stoke-on-Trent, Slough, Bournemouth and Liverpool; and how many day nurseries have been closed throughout England and Wales since Circular 23/52 was issued on 28th July last.
§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith)The maximum charges in the four areas are 14s., 43s., 44s., and 16s. 6d., respectively. Thirty-four nurseries had been closed up to the end of last March.
§ Dr. StrossIs the Parliamentary Secretary aware that in Stoke-on-Trent there is a very strict test of need—not a test of means—and, despite that very strict test of need for accommodation, the local authority have to find more than £11,000 a year net out of their own rates? Does the hon. Lady not consider this something which many local authorities cannot afford, as it is a 2d. rate? When are we to get real assistance from the Government on this matter?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThat is another question.
§ Mr. BowlesHow does the hon. Lady account for the great difference which her figures have disclosed?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe charges to be made are at the discretion of local authorities, but they may not exceed the cost to the local authority per nursery place.
§ 6. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health the comparative cost per child of day nurseries in Stoke-on-Trent, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Kidsgrove at the latest date for which figures are available.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithIn 1951–52 the costs were £178, £147 and £136.
§ Mr. SwinglerAre not these costs very high, and what is the Minister doing to reduce the costs of running these day nurseries in order that they may be maintained, and the charges, decided by the local authority, kept down?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithAll local authorities are endeavouring to run their day nurseries as economically as possible. The hon. Member will appreciate that the biggest single item in looking after small children is the high incidence of staff.
§ Mr. SwinglerWill the hon. Lady review the staff arrangements? There are many criticisms about the over-staffing of day nurseries. Would it be possible to review the staffing arrangements in order to try to get greater economy? It is the responsibility of her Department.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe general standard is laid down by the Ministry, but the administration of the nurseries is entirely a matter for the local authorities.
§ Mr. D. BrookIn whatever decision she comes to, will the hon. Lady try to avoid running nursery classes on the cheap?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithNursery classes are not the concern of my Department.
§ Mr. D. BrookI am sorry, I meant day nurseries.
§ 7. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health how many day nurseries have been maintained in Staffordshire; and what was the cost of them to his Department in 1950, 1951 and 1952.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithTen; the Exchequer grant payable in the years referred to was £21,620, £20,447 and £20,542 respectively.
§ Mr. SwinglerWill the Parliamentary Secretary say whether it is the policy of her Department to encourage the maintenance of day nurseries and to keep them open? What action is being taken in Staffordshire, where there is a danger of day nurseries being closed owing to the high rate of charges, in order to ensure that there is a proper social service of day nurseries?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithA decision on the need for day nurseries is a matter for local authorities, who take into account local considerations.
§ Mr. BowlesIs the hon. Lady aware that in Warwickshire the cost is 50 per cent. more than in Staffordshire, namely £3 a week, and all the nursery schools have been closed by the local authority, including that in Nuneaton, with the consent of her right hon. Friend?
§ 8. Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Health how many children were attending day nurseries in Leek, Kids-grove, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Biddulph on 1st April, 1952 and 1953.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThirty-five and 13 at Leek, 44 and 24 at Kidsgrove, 73 and 23 at the two nurseries at Newcastle-under-Lyme. There is no nursery at Biddulph.
§ Mr. Daviesis the hon. Lady aware that this drop in attendance is indicative of the fact that many mothers who need to work to earn a living are now unable to work and are going on National Assistance? Is not the Government's policy therefore penny wise and pound foolish in this matter?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithAll the local authorities who have raised their charges to those whom they feel can afford to pay the higher rate have a very generous assessment of means. Where it is considered that the income is too low to afford the standard charge, local authorities make very substantial reductions.
§ Mr. SwinglerIs the hon. Lady aware that it has hitherto been the policy of the Minister of Labour to encourage women to work in the pottery industry and other industries in North Staffordshire? If she is intending to encourage women to continue to do so, will she inquire into this deplorable drop in numbers, which shows that women are withdrawing their children from the day nurseries owing to the high charges, and will she consult with the Minister of Labour?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithMy right hon. Friend has consulted with his right hon. and learned Friend. I understand there is no evidence that the closing or the lessening of the use of nurseries has had any adverse effect on the labour situation
§ Mr. DoddsHow can the Parliamentary Secretary refer to the sympathy of local authorities when in her own county of Kent all the day nurseries are being closed down, and there is no question of sympathy at all?
§ 9. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister or Health what alternative provision he will make for those working mothers who are financially compelled to withdraw their children from day nurseries in Staffordshire owing to the 350 per cent. increase in charges.
§ 10 and 11. Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Health (1) if he is aware of the concern aroused by the increase in charges in day nurseries in Staffordshire from 8s. 9d. per child per week to £2; and, in view of the importance of women's work in industry in North Staffordshire and the declared intention of many mothers to leave industry rather 1389 than pay the increased charge, what action he proposes to take;
(2) what action he is taking to ensure that the charges in day nurseries in Staffordshire are fixed at a reasonable level.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithThe standard charge of £2 a week in Staffordshire is based on the cost per nursery place, but is reduced according to the means of those parents who cannot afford it. The question of securing female labour for industry is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Labour.
§ Mr. SwinglerDoes the Parliamentary Secretary appreciate that a great grievance arises when in two adjacent areas where women are working in the same industry, the charges vary by as much as 200 per cent.? Is she aware that the basic charge in Stoke-on-Trent is 2s. 6d. and in the county area of Staffordshire it is now 8s., and that because of different policies being pursued a very bad situation is arising among women working in the same industry in North Staffordshire?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithI appreciate the point raised by the hon. Member, but I think that the House would agree that this is a matter where local considerations should be judged by the local authority.
§ Mr. DaviesIs the hon. Lady aware that people who are least able to bear the burden—unmarried mothers, widows and others—are now unable to go to work because of this general policy? May I beg her and her right hon. Friend to investigate this question of differential payments for day nurseries throughout the whole country and try to get a unified policy?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithBut even a unified policy might not give equality if conditions vary in different areas. I cannot agree that the type of applicants mentioned, widows or unmarried mothers, are unable to work. The quite generous allowances permitted under the new scales in these areas provide that a widow with one child, paying 25s. a week rent, would have to earn approximately £9 a week before being called upon to pay the full charge.
§ Mr. ManuelWhat is the full charge?
§ Mr. PartridgeCan my hon. Friend say which children whose parents have been assessed as able to pay the full charge came from families with substantial incomes?
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithFrom the investigations made, and from those who replied to the questionnaire, it was revealed that between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. were earning over £10 per week—
§ Mr. DaviesScandalous and ridiculous.
§ Mr. DaviesI object to these absurd statements—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Miss Hornsby-SmithOf those families who replied when asked why they should not pay the full charge between 60 per cent. and 70 per cent. were earning over £10 a week—[Interruption.] A substantial number would not disclose their means, and withdrew their children.