HC Deb 11 May 1953 vol 515 cc874-8
41. Mr. Callaghan

asked the Minister of Transport if, before making his appointments to the Road Haulage Disposal Board, he will inquire whether Mr. James Barrie, of Glasgow, who is one of the two nominees put forward by the Road Haulage Association, has also been nominated by them as a director of Transport Unit Finance, a company set up by the United Dominions Trust to lend money to buyers of the lorries.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

Before making any appointments of this kind, I inquire into the interests of the persons whose names are before me.

Mr. Callaghan

May I take it that the Minister will not appoint anyone who is interested in buying the lorries and who is nominated for that job by the Road Haulage Association?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think the hon. Gentleman had better wait until I announce whom I have decided to appoint.

Mr. Callaghan

Should not the Minister give us an assurance that no one will be put in the position of selling lorries on the one hand and buying them on the other? That is what we call a "bucket shop."

Mr. Lenuox-Boyd

I do not for a moment accept the hon. Gentleman's classification of this particular point. I think it highly regrettable that we should descend to personalities of this kind— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—whichever party may form the Government. What we want is to appoint the best possible people available, and not to subject them to ungenerous criticism.

Mr. Woodburn

On a matter of principle, may we have an assurance from the Minister that he will not allow the vital question of Scottish transport to become the plaything of financial rackets?

Mr. Callaghan

Will not the Minister give an assurance on the principle—there is no question of personalities; it is a question of principle—that a man who is nominated as the director of a company formed for the purpose of financing the purchase of lorries should not also be put in a position where he is engaged in disposing of them?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The hon. Gentleman will find the question of principle dealt with in Section 2 (7) of the Act, which was fully debated in the House.

Mr. Callaghan

May I ask if that means that the Minister will not appoint under Section 2 (7) a member of the Road Haulage Association, as he is not required to do so?

Hon. Members: Answer.

Mr. Shinwell

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it wise that he should make an appointment in the case where someone could, at one and the same time, dispose of the lorries and buy them? Does he think that wise?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

Had the right hon. Gentleman found it possible to attend the debates he would have heard a full discussion on this when the Clause was being discussed.

Mr. Shinwell

Attendance at the Transport Bill debates does not preclude asking questions in this House, as the right hon. Gentleman will agree. All I wish to know, and I repeat the question, is whether he thinks it wise and in the public interest, or would it not create some public concern, to appoint someone to dispose of lorries who can, at the same time, buy them?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I certainly do not accept that the appointment to this particular Board necessarily constitutes a bar to the appointment of that particular gentleman. The general question of principle was debated at length in this House during the 20 days we spent on the Transport Bill, and I am not prepared to make observations of a kind peculiar to a particular gentleman—who happens incidentally to be a fellow Scot—like this, by question and answer.

Mr. Attlee

Surely the right hon. Gentleman can give a straight answer? There is no question whatever of personalities. It is only a question of whether it is right to put a person in a position of trust, where on the one hand he is interested in selling on behalf of the Government, and at the same time in buying on behalf of another organisation. Surely that is a question of principle? It may be in the Bill but cannot the right hon. Gentleman say yes or no?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

If the issue were as the right hon. Gentleman has put it, of course there would be no question which way the answer lay—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which way?"]. It would clearly be wrong for a person to be interested in a particular sale, or series of sales, and also to sit on the Disposal Board. Had the right hon. Gentleman followed the long debates we had on this matter he would know the Government's position is perfectly plain. What I refuse to do now is to say in one way or the other whether the appointment on a particular board constitutes a bar in this particular case.

Mr. Ernest Davies

Does not the Minister understand that the House is concerned that this gentleman will be on a Trust which will become interested in the purchase of a large number of vehicles and that it will not be disclosed during the sale and purchase whether the United Dominions Trust and its subsidiaries are actually to finance the purchase? Therefore, is not the correct principle to refuse to have on the Board anyone who will be associated with the financing of the purchasing of the vehicles?

Hon. Members

Answer.

Mr. Speaker

Order. That seems to be the same question as has been asked several times already.

Mr. Callaghan

In view of the highly unsatisfactory and evasive nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

Sir H. Williams

On a point of order. Is the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies), who has Question No. 49 on the Order Paper, entitled to put it as a supplementary question on this Question?

Mr. Speaker

We shall see when we get to Question No. 49.

49. Mr. Ernest Davies

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has invited the Road Haulage Association to submit nominations for appointment to the Road Haulage Disposal Board; and when such invitation was made, and what has been the response.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

On 23rd March I invited the Road Haulage Association to submit nominations to me, and on 2nd April I received from them the names of their nominees.

Mr. Davies

Since the Bill did not receive the Royal Assent until 6th May, why did the Minister invite his nominations at such an early date? Will he tell us who were the nominees of the Road Haulage Association and will he confirm whether Mr. Barrie was one of those nominees? Why did he invite this body, the Road Haulage Association, which is partisan and prejudiced and concerned not only in the purchase of the vehicles but also, through its nominee, in financing the purchase?

Sir H. Williams

rose—

Mr. Speaker

This matter is to be raised on the Adjournment. Notice has been given by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan).

Mr. Callaghan

On a point of order. May I submit that the question which I wish to raise on the Adjournment is not the Question which my hon. Friend is asking. It is whether the Minister has invited nominees. The question I shall raise is whether the Road Haulage Association should have any nominees on this Board at all, which is an entirely different matter.

Mr. Speaker

They seem to me to be related. If the Minister has any answer he would like to give, I do not object, but we cannot carry it far.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I am quite prepared to say that it obviously appears appropriate that the Road Haulage Association should be consulted in regard to suggestions about who might be thought to have experience as A and B licence holders. Despite the great difficulties in which they have been placed as a result of the Socialist Act of 1947, they have kept very good control and knowledge of their members. I asked them in advance because it appeared to be a good thing to plan in advance. If hon. Members opposite had done it, we should be in a better national position.