HC Deb 04 May 1953 vol 515 cc26-8
43. Mr. Ernest Davies

asked the Minister of Transport the full terms of reference of the Committee of Inquiry into London Transport and name its chairman and members.

The Minister of Transport (Mr. Alan Lennox-Boyd)

I gave the terms of reference in the House on Tuesday last. I hope to announce the names of the chairman and members of this Committee very shortly.

Mr. Davies

Is the Minister aware that there is a great deal of information which should be given to the House concerning this inquiry? Can he confirm that the matters relating to wages, working conditions and labour relations generally will be excluded from the terms of reference and that such matters will not be left to the chairman to decide?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

There is a question on that point later on the Order Paper.

Mr. Popplewell

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the evidence submitted to this Committee, and its findings, will be made public?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think that in these matters discretion must be left to the chairman of the Committee, in accordance with general practice.

Mr. Jay

Would it be within the terms of reference of this Committee to recommend a reduction in the petrol duty?

Mr. Davies

If the Question on the Paper, to which the Minister referred, is not reached, will he, none the less, give a reply to my supplementary?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I had proposed to answer Question No. 55 along with the hon. Gentleman's Question No. 44 immediately after this one.

Mr. Popplewell

Surely the Minister has some responsibility. Would he ask the chairman of this Committee to make public the evidence it receives, and also its findings?

44. Mr. Ernest Davies

asked the Minister of Transport what consultations he had with the British Transport Commission and with the trade unions concerned in regard to the setting up of a Committee of Inquiry into London Transport.

55. Mr. G. Brown

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will now state the terms of reference of the Committee of Inquiry into the London Transport undertaking; if he will ensure that wages and conditions of employment established by joint negotiating machinery are excluded from the terms of reference; and what consultations he has had, or proposes to have, on this matter with the trade unions which are parties to these long-standing agreements.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I announced the terms of reference in the House last Tuesday. It would not be proper or in the public interest that anything relevant to the Committee's terms of reference should be excluded from their consideration. Charges are excepted because under the Transport Act, 1947, they are the responsibility of a statutory body— the Transport Tribunal.

The inquiry is not aimed in any way at the wages and conditions of service agreed between the Executive and its employees, and the Committee will not, of course, have any power to abrogate any agreement of this kind. Nor would it be proper for them to recommend any specific changes in such agreements. But if, for example, some such agreement relating to conditions of service appeared to them to have resulted in an uneconomical use of manpower it would be quite proper for them to draw attention to it, and to suggest that it should be examined through the appropriate negotiating machinery.

I informed the Chairmen of the Commission and of the London Transport Executive of the possibility of an inquiry some time ago, but there has been no consultation with other persons. As I said when announcing the inquiry, it is my intention that there should be trade union representation on the Committee.

Mr. Davies

The Minister said that there had been no consultation except with the Chairman of London Transport itself. Does he mean to say that there was no consultation whatever with the trade unions before he decided to set up this Committee, in spite of the fact that, according to the statement he has just made, matters relevant to working conditions can be discussed by the Committee?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I also had no consultations with the travelling public. Though the hon. Gentleman may often forget it, it is for the purpose of serving the travelling public that the Executive exists.

Mr. Partridge

Has my right hon. Friend received any intimation from any quarter or body that the wages and conditions of employment in London Transport are such that they ought not to be inquired into? Will my right hon. Friend explain in very simple terms, for the benefit of those hon. Members opposite whose understanding must be limited, that this is an inquiry and not an executive committee?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I think those points are dealt with in my answer which, I hope, will commend itself to both sides of the House.

Mr. Gibson

Can the Minister say, particularly in view of what he said about working conditions under the trade union agreements, whether it is anticipated that the trade unions will be given an opportunity of submitting evidence, and, if so, whether that evidence can be heard in public?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

There is also a Question down on the Order Paper on that point, but, if it is not reached, may I say that I cannot imagine that the chairman of the Committee would not welcome evidence from the unions concerned.