HC Deb 27 March 1953 vol 513 cc970-5

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

11.13 a.m.

Sir Geoffrey Hutchinson (Ilford, North)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

This Bill has not hitherto encountered opposition in the House and I am hopeful that it will not do so this morning. During its passage through its various stages some hon. Members have been good enough to draw my attention to what at first sight appeared to be defects. I am grateful to them for the interest they have taken in this matter and I hope that we have now effectually disposed of all these matters and that those hon. Members are satisfied that the Bill is now effective to accomplish its purpose.

The evil at which this Bill strikes is, I believe, more widespread than many hon. Members had imagined. It is certainly more widespread than I thought when I first drew attention to this matter. It is estimated that, when I first raised this matter on the Adjournment, nearly 12 months ago, these agencies had defrauded the public of sums amounting to about £100,000. That is not my own estimate, it was supplied to me from authoritative quarters. At that time, I had no conception that the sums involved in those transactions were so great. In the case of one agency alone it has been estimated that between £10,000 and £12,000 had been taken from the public. I am glad to say that that agency has been disposed of by action outside this Bill. At that time, in the Metropolitan Police district alone, there were more than 40 agencies of this character carrying on business. A number of them have since closed their doors and I hope that when this Bill becomes law. they will all put up their shutters.

I do not anticipate that there will be many prosecutions under this Bill. When it becomes known that what these agencies are doing is clearly unlawful, I hope that most of these gentlemen, who are well acquainted with the provisions of the law as it is at present, will close these agency businesses. They will then probably begin to defraud the public in some other way.

Mr. Ede (South Shields)

Is that meant as an encouragement to them?

Sir G. Hutchinson

The right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate that gentleman of this character require no encouragement to defraud the public; they are quite capable of doing it without being encouraged. I only mention these matters today in case any hon. Members think that the time spent upon this Bill has been spent in vain. It is a small Bill, but I hope that it will prove to be a useful one.

I am aware that many hon. Members are reluctant to create new criminal offences, and that is a reluctance which I share. There are probably too many criminal offences already and not too few. Yet in a case of this kind it can fairly be said that in substance this Bill does not create any new offence. I am satisfied that what these agencies are doing is already unlawful. They are already obtaining money by false pretences, but the difficulties of proof under the present law are formidable. It means that a great cloud of witnesses must be collected and, even then, I am not by any means certain that a conviction can be obtained.

This Bill furnishes the authorities with powers which, although, in a sense, they possess them at present, they can only exercise them in very difficult circumstances. I hope that the Bill will make it easier to check the mischief at which it aims. I commend the Bill to the House and I hope that the House will continue to be as generous towards it, and the purposes I had in mind when promoting it, as it has been hitherto.

11.18 a.m.

Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton (Brixton)

I beg to second the Motion.

I gladly associate myself with what the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ilford, North (Sir G. Hutchinson) has said. I well recall that it was on St. George's Day, 1952, when the hon. and learned Gentleman first brought to the attention of the House and of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government the abuses connected with this form of exploitation. We had to wait until after 6 o'clock in the morning before we were able to initiate that Adjournment debate, and the assembly of hon. Members on that occasion was nothing like as large as it is today.

In accordance with the rules of order, on that occasion the Minister of Housing and Local Government was unable to deal with any matters relating to legislation, but he said he would do everything he could to assist his hon. and learned Friend. Frankly, I was not very much impressed by that undertaking at the time and I felt it necessary some weeks after the Adjournment debate, on 24th June, to put a Question to the Minister. In reply, the Minister repeated that considerable progress had been made which he hoped would lead to action.

The hon. and learned Member for Ilford, North was then able to secure the leave of the House to introduce the Measure, and that was successfully achieved on 16th December last. A remarkably short time elapsed between the date on which the hon. and learned Gentleman first broached the subject and the date on which he obtained the leave of the House to introduce the Bill, and that in itself was a remarkable achievement, because Private Members' efforts to introduce changes in the law are normally attended by very many difficulties. When much of the legislation of this Parliament is forgotten or repealed, or both, this Measure will shine out like a good deed in a naughty world because, of all the delicate plants in the legislative vineyard, the Private Member's Bill is probably the most frail.

Consequently, the hon. and learned Gentleman is to be congratulated on the Measure. He is all the more to be congratulated on the success which has so far attended his efforts because, when seeking the leave of the House to introduce the Bill on 16th December last, he announced that it had my support. Nevertheless, without demur, the House gave leave for the introduction of the Bill. As a matter of fact, the Bill includes among its sponsors and supporters hon. Members of all parties.

The Bill will bring to an end the particularly mean and spiteful exploitation of poor people who have in the past been defrauded of fees of from one guinea to five guineas by fraudulent so called estate agents—they were not recognised members of any reputable organisation of estate agents—who merely collected a few names and addresses from newspapers and circulated them, with details of premises to let, to the people whom they were successful in persuading to part with the fees.

They also advertised in the windows of small shops, in particular in various suburbs of London. In that way, they amassed very considerable sums. As the hon. and learned Gentleman said, many thousands of pounds were filched from the pockets of poor people on the pretext that, if they registered their names with the fraudulent agencies, priority would be given to them in housing.

I congratulate the hon. and learned Member. I have spent so many fruitless Fridays in the House since I became a Member of Parliament that it is a very pleasant change to find myself associated with what looks like a successful attempt to get a useful reform on the Statute Book.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Ernest Marples)

I should not like to let pass the opportunity of offering my congratulations to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Sir G. Hutchinson). I shall not follow the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton (Lieut.-Colonel Lipton) into some of his analogies about good deeds in a naughty world and vineyards, but I must say that it was refreshing to hear from the Opposition that it is the world, and not merely the Tory Party, which is wicked.

I also remember the Adjournment debate at 6.30 in the morning. The sun was streaming through these windows, and I recall my hon. and learned Friend's rather gaunt figure as he stood in a most impressive manner and delivered himself of the subject which has troubled him for some time. As the hon. and gallant Member for Brixton said, it was worth waiting until 6.30. My right hon. Friend gave an undertaking that he would look into the points raised by my hon. and learned Friend, and he made good that promise, because later that day inquiries were started, and as a result, prosecutions took place. That will show hon. Members that sometimes Adjournment debates are not quite the waste of time they seem to be when they take place.

After the prosecutions had taken place, my hon. and learned Friend introduced the Measure. I have seen papers relating to some of the cases which have occurred. There have been far too many of these frauds. It is a particularly heartless, cruel and evil fraud because the victims lose not only money but also lose the hope of getting a home. In the case of share pushing or a fraud of that nature, money is extracted from an individual who may or may not be able to afford it, but rarely is a false hope implanted in the victim as in this case by telling him that he is in a favourable position to get a flat or a house. It is wrong that people with fraudulent intentions should make the scarcity of homes the subject of one of their most vicious rackets.

I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend. I hope he will, with his calm determination, unruffled by the interventions of others in his Adjournment debates, continue to do good work and perhaps introduce another Bill, if not this Session perhaps during the next.

Mr. Ede

As the other hon. Member who was present at 6.30 on that fateful morning, I congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Ilford, North (Sir G. Hutchinson) on having so speedily achieved the object that he had in view when other hon. Members showed their lack of appreciation of his efforts by deserting the Chamber en masse when he rose to speak, a not uncommon fate for those who attempt an Adjournment debate after an all-night Sitting.

Sir G. Hutchinson

I bear them no ill-will.

Mr. Ede

The hon. and learned Member said that the people who had been perpetrating the misdeeds at which he aims in this Bill would probably go off and commit some other form of crime on the public. I can only hope that he will fix his gaze on them, watch them when they go off, and that, when he finds what they are up to, he will ask the leave of the House to introduce another Bill. I think he will find, after his success on this occasion, that he will receive very great support. I congratulate him and sincerely urge him not to be weary in well doing.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.