HC Deb 26 March 1953 vol 513 cc810-5
2. Mr. Chetwynd

asked the Minister of Education if she is now able to make a statement on her recent discussions with representatives of adult education organisations concerning the grants for 1953–54.

16. Mr. Willey

asked the Minister of Education whether she has completed her consideration and discussions; and if she will now make a statement on the reduction of grants for adult education.

29. Brigadier Medlicott

asked the Minister of Education if she has now completed her discussions regarding the grant for adult education in 1953–54; and if she will make a statement.

Miss Horsbrugh

My discussions are not yet complete and I cannot yet make any statement.

Mr. Chetwynd

Can the Minister say why she has taken so long to reverse the decision, which she announced on 12th February, that she was proposing a cut in the Estimates for adult education of about £34,000? Would it not be better if at this stage she yielded to the pressure of the Opposition, the blandishments of the T.U.C. and the patience of the organisations concerned, and gave way on this matter?

Miss Horsbrugh

First, I made no statement in February that there would be a cut of 10 per cent. Second, I have received only recently—probably within the last eight or nine days—the figures for which I asked. They have to come from 47 different bodies. Those figures then have to be analysed. I shall then ask that leaders of the responsible bodies should come to meet me and discuss them. Until that is done, I cannot make a statement.

Mr. Willey

Does the right hon. Lady deny that she proposed the cut? Does she realise that this inexcusable procrastination is disheartening these bodies and that some people believe that that was the calculated purpose?

Miss Horsbrugh

I do not know that these bodies are disheartened. I must say that when they came to see me they were very willing to discuss this matter, and they had been discussing it with my officials previously. They know that I am going to see them again to discuss the matter further before I reach any conclusion.

Brigadier Medlicott

Is it not clear that the Minister's sympathy with, and interest in, adult education have been made manifest throughout these discussions, and that the future of this valuable form of education can be safely left in her hands?

Miss Horsbrugh

I think that is absolutely clear from the deputations which I have received. The difficulty is in assembling certain facts and figures. They have to come from 47 different bodies, because the grant is paid separately. I have already said—and I also said it on the Adjournment Motion—that the grant may be less, it may be the same or it may be more; but I want to see the figures and discuss them with those bodies.

Mr. Fernyhough

Cannot the right hon. Lady assure the House that, whatever else she does, she will certainly not make it more difficult for the W.E.A. to carry on its activities in the future than it has been in the past?

Miss Horsbrugh

I am certainly in favour of the work being carried on, but the hon. Gentleman may not perhaps know that the W.E.A. get a quarter of the grant. As I said, there is a very difficult interchange between the W.E.A. and the University Extra-Mural Depart- ments, and I think four-fifths goes to the Extra-Mural Departments. The majority of the fees go to the W.E.A., so that it is a very complex problem. That is why we are studying it.

20. Mr. Ede

asked the Minister of Education to give the date and terms of the communication she sent to the responsible bodies, university and other, for liberal adult education when she told them she was going to reduce the rate of her grants from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54 by 10 per cent.; and if she will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the responsible bodies to whom she sent this intimation.

19. Mr. F. Willey

asked the Minister of Education on what date, in what manner and upon what occasion she told the responsible bodies for adult education that she proposed to reduce the rate of her grants from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54 by 10 per cent.

Miss Horsbrugh

Letters were sent on 7th January of this year to the Chairman of the Universities Council for Adult Education and the General Secretary of the W.E.A. At the same time an intimation was given that I was prepared to discuss my proposals with a deputation of the organisations concerned whenever they wished to see me.

Mr. Ede

The right hon. Lady admits that she did, as she told my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 13th February, say that there would be a 10 per cent. cut?

Miss Horsbrugh

I think it would be very inadvisable at this moment, when discussions are going on, to go into details, but the fact is as I have stated, that I asked them to come to have discussions about this £34,000. If I had decided to make a cut completely of £34,000 I should not have asked them to come to discuss it with me. I did ask them to come, and the discussions are still going on concerning what should be done.

Mr. Ede

Is the right hon. Lady's defence, then, that she misled the House on 13th February when she told my hon. Friend: I have told these bodies that I propose to reduce the rate of my grants, from the beginning of the educational year 1953–54, by 10 per cent., as compared with those payable in the current educational year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13 th February, 1953; Vol. 511, c. 81.]? She said nothing then about asking them to come to discuss the matter.

Miss Horsbrugh

As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, the word is "proposed." In the letter I suggested that they should come to discuss the matter with me. That was in January. They did come, and discussed it with my officers. I then received a deputation myself. With the words which the right hon. Gentleman has read I am fully in agreement, and the word is "proposed."

Mr. Willey

Does the right hon. Lady recollect that the word I used on Friday, which she corrected, was that she "suggested" the cut? She went out of her way to correct what I said. If it is inadvisable now to say anything, why was it advisable for her to say something on 12th February? If she cannot act now because she has not the relevant information, why did she act then without information?

Miss Horsbrugh

I had certain information that I gave to the House during an Adjournment debate recently. Because of the information, I asked bodies concerned to come and discuss the reduction. Because of the figures I then had, which I gave to the House, I asked for further figures which might make a difference to the figure I had. I have now got those figures and am considering them, and shall discuss the matter again with the responsible bodies.

Mr. Nabarro

Is not the 1953–54 Vote for adult education the highest on record, and even if it were cut by 10 per cent., would it not still be higher than that for 1950–51, the last year when hon. Gentlemen opposite were in office?

Miss Horsbrugh

I certainly agree that the amount of grant that I gave for the present financial year was larger than any grant ever given before. We are now discussing what the grant should be for the next academic year, and it is because of that that I want to have fuller facts and figures before I make my decision.

Mr. Harold Davies

Is the right hon. Lady aware that all this vacillation is upsetting the adult education programme for next year? Preparations are already being made for university extension classes, tutorial classes and pioneer work in other directions. The Government's indecision is wrecking future adult education in Britain.

Miss Horsbrugh

That is not the point of view which has been put to me by those who have come to see me, and they are responsible people.

Captain Pilkington

Is it not a fact that nobody wants this cut and that it would not have been necessary if it had not been for the appalling financial policy of the Labour Government?

Mr. Speaker

We cannot debate this matter now.

Mr. Swingler

On a point of order. In view of the fact that on 13th February, in answer to a Question of mine, the Minister clearly said that she proposed to make a 10 per cent. reduction and not that she proposed to discuss it, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

30. Mr. Janner

asked the Minister of Education whether she has considered the resolution submitted to her by the University College of Leicester Board of Adult Education, associating itself with the expressions of dismay that have been conveyed to her by various responsible bodies at the proposal to reduce by 10 per cent. the grant-aid payable on the teaching programmes of those bodies; whether she is aware that the Board has been compelled to increase the fees twice within recent years to help to meet the rise in costs, which have not included her Department's grant; and what answer she has given.

Miss Horsbrugh

Yes, Sir, I have seen the resolution of the University College of Leicester Board of Adult Education, and I have replied that I am carefully considering what they have told me.

Mr. Janner

Is the Minister aware of the fact that the Board state that if the fees are further raised, they believe that it will have the effect of excluding from classes and courses the less well-paid students, that is, the younger students at the beginning of their careers, and the weekly wage earners? In view of that, will she refrain from making these increases which she contemplates?

Miss Horsbrugh

I was a little mystified by the hon. Gentleman's Question, because he asks if I am aware that … the Board has been compelled to increase the fees twice within recent years to help to meet the rise in costs, which have not included her Department's grant; … There are certain classes of adult education which do not come within that sphere at all. As I told the hon. Gentleman, I am considering the report.