HC Deb 18 March 1953 vol 513 cc149-63

9.21 p.m.

Mr. Hugh Gaitskell (Leeds, South)

I am glad that we have the opportunity to speak for a few minutes on this important subject. I am only sorry that there are not more hon. Members opposite to take an interest in the expenditure on stationery and printing. For their benefit, and in case they do not know it already, this Supplementary Estimate comes on top of an original Estimate, which is already at a record level. The total amount which is now being spent this year on stationery and printing is close on £16 million, which is about £6 million more than was spent in 1949–50.

The Estimate for £825,000 is made up of a number of different items, but I observe that among them is a sum of £470,000 for printing, and of this £470,000 no less than £390,000 is for "Departmental forms and circulars, pamphlets, instruction books, etc." We shall want to know how on earth it comes about that the Financial Secretary, who when he was on this side of the House was extremely critical of forms of any kind, could allow such a thing to happen.

Despatch boxes, pouches, wallets and miscellaneous, under Item G, amount to no less than £30,000. I should have thought that we could have got a great many despatch boxes, pouches and wallets for £30,000. What is the explanation of this? Is it something to do with the Overlord system that so many pouches have to go backwards and forwards?

I want to give the Financial Secretary plenty of time to reply. I also want to know how it comes about that there are such big deficiencies in the appropriations-in-aid. We are £140,000 down on sales of waste paper. Does that mean that more records are being kept and fewer things are being torn up? Then there are supplies to hospital authorities. How is it that the hospital authorities are paid £310,000 less this year?

The only bright spot in the whole gloomy picture is that there is an expected surplus on sales of Parliamentary and non-Parliamentary publications. Once again, the House of Commons comes to the rescue, but I am afraid only to the tune of £75,000 against this very substantial Supplementary Estimate of £825,000. I very much hope that the Financial Secretary will be able, even in five minutes, to give a full and adequate account of the stewardship which he appears to have been neglecting during the past year.

9.24 p.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter)

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for taking on the task of explaining the Supplementary Estimate. At one time he had a good deal of practice in explaining Supplementary Estimates. I can answer straight away the first substantial question he asked, about the fall in appropriations-in-aid in respect of waste paper. The very simple answer to that is that the price of new paper has fallen, and, therefore, inevitably waste paper fell in price. The difference is in substance due not to a decrease in quantity, but a decrease in price. Indeed, it is a reflection of a very advantageous and proper state of affairs, that is, that paper, like so many other things in these days, is falling in price.

The right hon. Gentleman then asked, perhaps with his tongue less in his cheek, for details of the three main items of additional expenditure—printing, binding, and general office supplies and machinery repairs. In the first place, as the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, accurate estimating in the case of a service Department like the Stationery Office is far more difficult than in the case of an ordinary Department, which has only its own work to plan. Accurately to estimate and forecast the expenditure of a Department such as this, whose work is directly affected by the amount of work required to be done for other Departments, involves estimating the work of some 50 or 60 different Departments and, therefore, the chance of not calculating it with complete accuracy is 60 times the greater.

I can, I think, in the three minutes that remain, indicate in what direction, because I think the Committee would like to know, are the main increases. Taking the first one—printing—which is, of course, much the largest, as the Committee will have appreciated, a very large part of the increase is in respect of the defence Departments. It reflects quite directly the increased activities on defence during the financial year which is now near closing. The largest single item of £95,000 is in respect of the Post Office, which is a trading Department and, being a trading Department, its increased expenditure in this direction will, of course, reflect the greater trading activity which, although it does not help this Vote, is, from the broad point of view of the national finances, not unsatisfactory.

The second largest item of £70,000, in respect of work for the Board of Trade, is required to keep up the heavy rise of work, which the right hon. Gentleman may remember, on the printing of Patent Office specifications which is getting very much into arrears, and, from every point of view, it is desirable to catch up with that work.

Much the same picture is reflected under Subhead G—binding. £85,000 out of the £110,000 involved there is in respect of the Departments working on Defence. By far the greater part again reflects defence work. As hon. Members are aware, in these days, apparently, defence work requires a great deal of paper.

Mr. Gaitskell

What about the pouches and wallets—that is not defence, is it?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The right hon. Gentleman is very well aware that pouches and wallets are freely used by the defence Departments for the carrying of confidential papers, and so on. [HON. MEMBERS: "What else?"] It is desirable that they should not lose them— [HON. MEMBERS: "The pouches or the papers?"] Neither the papers nor, of course, the pouches. At any rate, the item in respect of general office supplies and machinery repairs, etc. reflects very much the same position, namely, that there is mainly an increase on the side of the defence Departments.

Obviously, all Supplementary Estimates are matters which we would rather not have. When one takes the scale of modern Government and looks at the fact that this is an Estimate which reflects and is directly acted upon by the expenditure of virtually every Department of State, I do not think that this comparatively small sum is a matter which indicates anything particularly discreditable. The right hon. Gentleman has experience, no doubt

It being half-past Nine o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 16 (Business of Supply), to put the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote then under consideration.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,

That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £825,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for stationery, printing, paper, binding and printed books for the public service; for the salaries and expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry miscellaneous services, including reports of parliamentary debates.

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded forthwith to put severally the Questions:

"That the total amounts outstanding in such Estimates for the Navy, Army and Air Services for the coming financial year as have been put down on at least one previous day for consideration on an allotted day, and the total amounts of the outstanding Estimates supplementary to those of the current financial year as have been presented seven clear days, and of all outstanding Excess Votes, be granted for the Services defined in those Estimates, Supplementary Estimates and Statements of Excess."

NAVY ESTIMATES, 1953–54

That a sum, not exceeding £146,290,100, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, viz.:

£
1. Pay, &c, of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines 49,860,000
2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy 18,300,000
6. Scientific Services 14,671,000
9. Naval Armaments 28,812,000
10. Works, Buildings and Repairs at Home and Abroad 18,040,000
13. Non-Effective Services 16,607,000
15. Additional Married Quarters 100
£146,290,100

Question put, and agreed to.

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1953–54

That a sum, not exceeding £229,960,100, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for expenditure in respect of the Army Services, viz.:

£
1. Pay, &c, of the Army 126,290,000
2. Reserve Forces (to a number not exceeding 55,000, other ranks, for the Regular Reserve and 145,000, all ranks, for the Army Emergency Reserve), Territorial Army (to a number not exceeding 312,900. all ranks), Home Guard (to a number not exceeding 60,000, all ranks), Cadet Forces and Malta Territorial Force 18,290,000
5. Movements 35,070,000
8. Works, Buildings and Lands 32,400,000
10. Non-Effective Services 17,910,000
11. Additional Married Quarters 100
£229,960,100

Question put, and agreed to.

AIR ESTIMATES, 1953–54

That a sum, not exceding £359,320,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for expenditure in respect of the Air Services, viz.:

£
1. Pay, &c, of the Air Force 85,570,000
2. Reserve and Auxiliary Services (to a number not exceeding 155,000, all ranks, for the Royal Air Force Reserve, and 11,000, all ranks, for the Royal Auxiliary Air Force) 1,690,000
7. Aircraft and Stores 195,250,000
8. Works and Lands 70,000,000
9. Miscellaneous Effective Services 6,810,000
£359,320,000

Question put, and agreed to.

CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1952–53

That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £46,333,165, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for expenditure in respect of the following Supplementary Estimates, viz.:

CIVIL ESTIMATES
CLASS 1
£
25B. Coronation of Her Majesty … 232,000
CLASS II
6. Commonwealth Services … 197,650
7. Overseas Settlement … 102,090
9. Colonial and Middle Eastern Services … 10
CLASS III
4. Prisons, England and Wales … 236,500
7. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc. … 12,000
8. County Courts … 10
15. Prisons, Scotland … 61,800
18. Scottish Land Court … 200
CLASS IV
1. Ministry of Education … 8,598,000
3. British Museum (Natural History) … 11,500
6. National Gallery … 1,900
9. Wallace Collection … 1,300
14. Public Education, Scotland … 1,203,724
16. National Library, Scotland … 891
CLASS V
£
1. Ministry of Housing and Local Government … 443,650
2. Housing, England and Wales … 2,490,000
10. National Assistance Board (Revised Sum) … 19,700,000
14. National Health Service, Scotland … 1,155,000
15. Housing, Scotland … 314,000
CLASS VI
1. Board of Trade … 10
11. Surveys of Great Britain, etc. … 16,000
12. Forestry Commission … 250,000
19. State Management Districts, England and Wales … 10
22. Fisheries, Scotland … 63,130
23. Herring Industry … 86,500
CLASS VII
2. Houses of Parliament Buildings … 52,000
3. Public Buildings, Great Britain … 953,000
4. Public Buildings Overseas … 139,500
5. Royal Palaces … 29,000
6. Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens … 10,000
7. Miscellaneous Works Services … 398,990
8. Rates on Government Property … 144,400
CLASS VIII
1. Merchant Seamen's War Pensions … 25,400
2. Ministry of Pensions … 8,900,000
3. Royal Irish Constabulary Pensions, etc … 53,000
4. Superannuation and Retired Allowances … 450,000
£46,333,165

Question put, and agreed to.

NAVY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 1952–53

That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £3,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1953, for expenditure beyond the sum already provided in the Grants for Navy Services for the year.

SCHEDULE
Sums not exceeding
Supply Grants Appropriations in Aid
£ £
Vote
1. Pay, &c, of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines 1,500,000 100,000
2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy 2,650,000 *-2,400,000
3. Medical Establishments and Services 20,000 —
4. Civilians Employed on Fleet Services 150,000 —
6. Scientific Services Cr 1,150,000 50,000
7. Royal Naval Reserves Cr 100,000 —
8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—
Section I— Personnel 1,000,000 175,000
Section II— Matériel 2,700,000 3,500,000
Section III— Contract Work Cr 1,850,000 1,500,000
9. Naval Armaments Cr 3,800,000 *-500,000
10. Works, Buildings and Repairs at Home and Abroad 1,660,000 *-160,000
11. Miscellaneous Effective Services Cr 335,000 300,000
13. Non-effective Services 550,000 30,000
14. Merchant Shipbuilding and Repair 5,000 5,000
15. Additional Married Quarters — *-l, 100,000
Total, Navy (Supplementary) 1952–53 £3,000,000 £1,500,000
* Deficit

Question put, and agreed to.

CIVIL (EXCESSES), 1951–52
That a sum, not exceeding £22,435 10s. 2d., be granted to Her Majesty, to make good excesses on certain grants for Civil Services for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1952.
SCHEDULE
Class and Vote Excess of Expenditure over Estimate Appropriations in Aid Excess Votes
Class III £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
8. County Courts … 17,363 9 6 17,353 9 6 10 0 0
Class VI
8. Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries … 129,976 13 10 122,294 14 8 7,681 19 2
Class VII
4. Public Buildings Overseas … 24,964 5 10 10,262 8 2 14,701 17 8
11. Peterhead Harbour … 21 13 4 — 21 13 4
Class IX
1. Ministry of Supply … 1,102,196 2 1 1,102,186 2 1 10 0 0
17. Tin … 1,609,905 9 1 1,609,895 9 1 10 0 0
Total Civil (Excesses) £22,435 10 2
Question put, and agreed to.
Navy (Excess),1951–52
That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to Her Majesty, to make good an excess on the grants for Navy Services for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1952.
SCHEDULE
DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Navy Services, 1951–52 Votes Excesses of actual over Estimated gross Expenditure Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1. Pay, &c. of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines 994,375 17 4 — — 17,873 14 6
2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy — — 24,005 11 4 455,346 14 5
3. Medical Establishments and Services — 42,580 17 6 483,443 15 10 —
4. Civilians employed on Fleet Services — — 14,096 13 0 5,768 4 5
5. Educational Services — — 62,501 3 7 5,037 13 2
6. Scientific Services — - 577,140 1 9 92,985 9 5
7. Royal Naval Reserves — — 103,165 17 3 1,386 12 1
8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—
Section I.-Personnel — — 177,483 12 6 101,981 6 7
Section II.-Matériel 1,929,349 5 8 — — 1,202,658 4 8
Section III.-Contract Work 152,621 14 2 — — 757,156 13 11
9. Naval Armaments — — 675,207 8 11 1,160,162 3 7
10. Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad 633,102 10 1 — — 12,585 15 8
11. Miscellaneous Effective Services 329,104 16 9 — — 613,599 9 3
12. Admiralty Office — — 1,952 0 3 9,771 4 8
13. Non-effective Services — — 104,345 17 9 2,429 1 3
14. Merchant Shipbuilding and Repair Services — 1,081 6 8 6,009 19 2 —
15. Additional Married Quarters — — 64,747 13 2 —
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned 19,544 7 9 — — —
4,058,098 11 9 43,662 4 2 2,294,099 14 6 4,438,742 7 7
Excess Vote — — 10 0 0 —
4,058,098 11 9 43,662 4 2 2,294,109 14 6 4,438,742 7 7
£4,101,760 15s. 11d. £6,732,852 2s. 1d.
Net Surplus £2,631,091 6s. 2d.
Question put, and agreed to.
Army (Excess), 1951–52
That a sum, not exceeding £2,731,080 7s. 8d., be granted to Her Majesty, to make good an excess on the grants for Army Services for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1952.
SCHEDULE
DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Army Services, 1951–52 Votes Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1. Pay, &c, of the Army 1,180,686 19 0 — — 405,781 5 9
2. Reserve Forces, Territorial Army, Home Guard and Cadet Forces 35,205 19 7 — — 45,675 7 11
3. War Office — — 2,221 17 0 1,404 18 7
4. Civilians 501,746 2 2 — — 20,569 14 0
5. Movements 732,874 18 4 — — 12,286 1 8
6. Supplies, &c 2,081,434 5 5 — — 456,084 8 4
7. Stores — — 3,183,718 12 5 736,422 18 0
8. Works, Buildings and Lands 3,019,546 4 4 — — 38,723 8 0
9. Miscellaneous Effective Services 246,547 11 5 298,336 0 11 — —
10. Non-effective Services — — 701,705 4 4 69,856 5 8
11. Additional Married Quarters. 223,070 13 7 — — —
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned 86,081 14 7 — — —
8,107,194 8 5 298,336 0 11 3,887,645 13 9 1,786,804 7 11
Excess Vote — — 2,731,080 7 8 —
8,107,194 8 5 298,336 0 11 6,618,726 1 5 1,786,804 7 11
£8,405,530 9s. 4d. £8,405,530 9s. 4d.
Question put, and agreed to.
AIR (EXCESS), 1951–52
That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to Her Majesty, to make good an excess on the grants for Air Services for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1952.
SCHEDULE
DEFICITS SURPLUSES
Air Services, 1951–52 Votes Excesses of actual over Estimated gross Expenditure Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, &c., of the Air Force — 90,987 2 6 758,994 2 4 —
2. Reserve and Auxiliary Services. 33,234 18 8 — — 394 15 11
3. Air Ministry — 14,794 8 5 59,510 7 10 —
4. Civilians at Outstations — 124,115 0 6 183,628 4 10 —
5. Movements — — 138,040 1 5 139,838 17 10
6. Supplies — — 979,682 3 6 328,084 16 4
7. Aircraft and Stores — — 478,112 16 1 200,358 11 3
8. Works and Lands 1,918,435 13 9 — — 546,006 12 0
9. Miscellaneous Effective Services. — — 116,750 0 9 105,223 19 6
10. Non-effective Services — — 49,777 15 2 25,298 1 5
11. Additional Married Quarters. 240,315 6 7 — — —
Balances Irrecoverable and Claims Abandoned. 18,345 0 11 — — —
2,210,330 19 11 229,896 11 5 2,764,495 11 11 1,345,205 14 3
Excess Vote — — 10 0 0 —
2,210,330 19 11 229,896 11 5 2,764,505 11 11 1,345,205 14 3
£2,440,227 11s. 4d. £4,109,711 6s. 2d.
Net Surplus £1,669,483 14s. l0d.

Question put, and agreed to.

To report Resolutions, and ask leave to sit again.—[Sir H. Butcher.]

Report to be received Tomorrow.

Committee to sit again Tomorrow.