§ 48. Mr. Jayasked the Prime Minister whether he can now estimate the saving to be made by the proposed amalgamation of the Ministries of Pensions and National Insurance, and Transport and Civil Aviation.
§ The Prime MinisterI must ask the right hon. Member to await the White Paper which I have already promised to the House, and which we hope will be ready at the end of April. Meanwhile I may say that the immediate saving in staff and administration will not be large but the amalgamations will enable growing economies to be secured while fully maintaining—as we are determined to do —the standard of service.
§ Mr. JayAre we, then, to assume that the Cabinet took this important decision without having any definite figures of savings before them?
§ The Prime MinisterThe matter was considered from every angle.
§ Mr. JayIf the right hon. Gentleman has the figures, is there any reason why he should not give them to the House?
§ The Prime MinisterEstimates are necessarily made on almost all matters, but the point at which those estimates are translatable into facts which can be laid with all responsibility before Parliament is one which must be left to the judgment of the Ministers of the day.
§ Mr. NabarroIs my right hon. Friend aware how greatly the country has welcomed this measure of economy and administrative simplicity? Would he regard it as a precursor for further such measures and the elimination of the Ministries of Materials and Food?
§ Mr. H. MorrisonWhilst I am not raising any point about the question of policy that is involved, surely it is elementary that when the Government consider these matters they have the figure of the immediate economies before them? I have handled some of these things, and that is always known. If the Prime Minister holds out the prospect of growing economies, is it based upon changes of policy? Can he not tell us what the immediate economy is on a 35 figure that must have been before Ministers? The right hon. Gentleman is getting worse and worse in refusing to give the House reasonable information in answering Questions.
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman said that he had considerable experience of these kinds of things, but he means considerable experience of these kinds of things the other way round: namely, that he would rapidly multiply and expand Departments in all directions and cast away our scanty store, in the hopes of successful electioneering. Very little experience has yet come his way along the more stony track of trying to repair evil that has been done and to save money that has been wasted.
§ Mr. MorrisonWhilst that is amusing, as the right hon. Gentleman can be, is not that reply, again, utterly irrelevant? Any Parliamentary Secretary could answer the question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman. Surely the Prime Minister could answer it. Is not his humour about "the other way round" rather out of place in view of the fact that he has created Ministers in Scotland and Wales much greater in number than ever before?
§ Mr. BottomleyIs there any significance in the fact that this economy was carried out in the absence of the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser)?
§ Mr. JayCan the Prime Minister at least tell us this: Were the savings which he expects from this step included in the Civil Estimates for these Departments which were laid before Parliament a fortnight ago?
§ The Prime MinisterI think I said that the matter will not approach a definite and final form until the summer. Therefore, I cannot suppose that the savings have been forecast in the present Estimates. Of course, one hopes that they will come about gradually, because not multiplying Departments at a time when the actual process itself is being reduced by natural causes is a way which brings about slowly and gradually a return to more normal limits of expenditure.