HC Deb 17 June 1953 vol 516 cc1141-2

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

11.45 p.m.

Sir F. Soskice

Would the Solicitor-General tell us, in a few words, what is the purpose of this Clause?

The Solicitor-General

The reasons for this Clause arise out of the recent decision in a case called Brown v. The Allweather Mechanical Grouting Company, Ltd., in the Divisional Court of Queen's Bench Division. It was held that excess penalties did not involve any conviction with the result that anyone who was charged with aiding and abetting could not be convicted. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is, I am sure, aware that throughout the old Customs Act there are often references to proceedings for recovery of excess penalties or treble penalties. That decision casts doubt on whether these proceedings will result in conviction, and the observations made in the course of that case indicate that the word "offence" did not necessarily involve conviction.

It was to make clear what the position was that this Clause was proposed, and it brings the position into line with what most people thought it was before that decision, so that there can be recovery in the magistrate's court. These proceedings will be of a criminal character so as to enable proceedings against limited liability companies, who may be the main perpetrators, to be taken and to enable proceedings to be taken also against those individuals who participate in the commission of the offences.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

A short while ago we had a discussion about the arrangements for this evening and next week, and I understood that the outcome of that was that the Chancellor was prepared to agree to defer to next week Clause 32, to which we attach such special importance. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree. It is not in any way that I wish to prolong the proceedings next week, but we believe we ought to have a proper discussion about the interest on the National Debt.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I presume that the right hon. Gentleman's observations indicate that he wishes to have a prolonged debate on this subject. I think it would be unreasonable to start on this subject at this late hour of the night, but I should like to make it quite clear that it is the Government's intention to get the Bill in the days allotted next week. We also have the new Clauses, which will take a considerable time. Therefore, I trust that this one remaining point will not occupy much of our discussions next week.

I must point out to the right hon. Gentleman that it is a subject which could be raised, and would be in order, on the Second Reading of the Bill, quite apart from any other occasion, and could also be further debated on Report. I must also say that if we do not make progress it will simply mean asking the Committee to sit late, and as we have tried to avoid that and do our work properly I hope that all will play in the forthcoming match next week.

On the subject of today, we have had just over eight hours of solid work without any interruption, and I think that that is about all for one day. We have made progress from Clause 14 to Clause 31 of the Bill and covered all the subjects. Accordingly, I am quite ready to accept the Motion.

Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.