Ministry of Materials (Hansard, 26 January 1953)

§ Sir A. Salter
All that I need to say with regard to this Vote is that we forecast considerable economies in the personnel of the Ministry of Materials to the number of about 430 posts in the course of this year. I am happy to say that we now expect that by the end of the year we shall have made further economies of about 300, making a total of about 700.

§ Mr. Stokes
I should like to follow that up by asking the Minister to tell us whether the total of about 400 and 300, making about 700, refers in any manner to the paying off, as it were, of the Timber Control or refers to a genuine reduction in the Ministry. My suspicion is that it has something to do with Timber Control, whose staff numbered about 900 when I was the Minister. If the Minister will answer now I will sit down. If not I will carry on. Well, perhaps the Minister can find out.
This virtually is a Vote for the Minister's salary. He said that economies have been made in the staff, and I am very glad to hear it. As I said earlier today, the Minister is to be congratulated on being the first pure Minister of Materials. Previously the Minister's job has been a dual occupation. Now—I presume because the job is important—one Minister has to concentrate the whole of his attention on supplies of raw materials and we have a whole-time Minister for the first time. That being so, I should like to ask him one or two questions.
First of all, I should like to emphasise that when I introduced the Bill to form the Ministry two years ago we stressed that we were not going to ask for a Parliamentary Secretary. The Minister's salary, in fact, was carried on the Vote of the Lord Privy Seal. There is no question of there being a Parliamentary Secretary; there is a full-blooded Minister costing £5,000 a year extra on the establishment. I do not complain about that, but this is virtually a Vote for the 752 Minister's salary. Therefore, I want to ask him one or two simple questions about some of the things he has been doing and will continue to do, which I could not ask him on the earlier Votes which we have been discussing because they had no relevance.
7.30 p.m.
First of all, can the Minister tell us how the International Materials Conference is going on and how many materials are being covered—

The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Hopkin Morris)
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would be in order if he attempted to reply to that question.

§ Mr. Stokes
But surely this is a job which the Minister has to do. When I was Minister of Materials, almost within three or four days of being appointed I got into a boat and went straight to Washington where I discussed with the people there what they should not do.

The Deputy-Chairman
The right hon. Gentleman's point, that this work may well have been done by a Parliamentary Secretary and that the salary is not necessary, is in order, but I do not know about the question of policy. I think that question is out of order.

§ Mr. Stokes
May I ask why we cannot have a Parliamentary Secretary instead who would have been able to do this sort of work? As the Parliamentary Secretary is not here, will the Minister give us some indication of what is going on? It is vitally important. The Minister knows the extent of the materials shortage. He knows how much in the future depends on what is done now.

The Deputy-Chairman
I think the right hon. Gentleman has made clear what is in his mind, but the Minister would be out of order if he were to reply to it.

§ Mr. Stokes
But with great respect, Mr. Hopkin Morris, surely if we are in effect voting a Minister's salary, we are entitled to ask him a few questions about what he is doing. That is all I am saying. I wanted to go into a little more detail with one or two pungent remarks. Am I not allowed to be pungent because the sum on the Vote is only £10?

The Deputy-Chairman
The right hon. Gentleman is not allowed to be pungent because this is not the occasion.

§ Mr. Stokes
What better occasion can I have than this when we are dealing with the Minister's salary? What the Government have decided to do is to establish a full-blooded Minister free from all other encumbrances, who is not allowed to meddle in other Departments like I was allowed to do, and who is free to give his mind to the job.

The Deputy-Chairman
The question whether there should be a Minister appointed at this salary or a Parliamentary Secretary is in order, and I think that is the point of this Vote. The question what policy the Minister pursues is another matter.

§ Mr. Stokes
I suppose I shall have to give in if that is your Ruling, Mr. Hopkin Morris. I had some remarks to make which I am sure the Committee would like to have heard. I shall have to reserve my remarks until another occasion. I hope that the Minister will have a talk with me behind the "iron curtain" so that I can indicate more clearly what I wish to say today.

§ Sir A. Salter
I should have been delighted to answer the right hon. Gentleman if I had been allowed to do so. As regards the reductions, it is true that a considerable number of those reductions related to people connected with the Timber Control, but there are several hundreds that fall outside that figure.
As regards my salary, all I can say is that if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to know why a new Minister is appointed, I think that is a matter for my right hon. Friend rather than for myself.

§ Mr. Stokes
The Minister ought to know.

§ Sir A. Salter
I do not think it is really for me or for a representative of my Ministry. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman's time and energy, devoted to the conduct of the Ministry of Materials, were substantially reduced by his care of the Privy Seal.

§ Mr. Stokes
Perhaps the Minister will remember that I was engaged across the water on the South Bank on the "slap and Tickle" at Battersea Park, and I also had a little adventure with Dr. Mossadeq.

§ Mr. Bottomley
Is it the Minister's intention to liquidate the Department by passing on all the work to private enterprise?