§ 33. Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Education whether, when giving the cost of erecting schools, she gives the gross cost or the net cost; and what is included in the additional cost.
§ Miss HorsbrughUnless I am specifically asked for other information, I normally express the cost of erecting new schools in terms both of the gross cost and of the net cost per place. The net cost covers the school buildings and playgrounds, while the additional cost includes such items as roads and paths, fencing and playing fields.
Full details are given in page 79 of my Department's Building Bulletin No. 2A of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
§ Mr. RemnantIs my right hon. Friend correct in saying that the net cost includes all the playing fields? Is it not correct to say that it includes only the paved playing fields and that all others come into the additional cost—which seems illogical?
§ Miss HorsbrughI said that the net cost includes the playgrounds, while the additional cost includes such items as roads, paths, fencing and playing fields.
§ 34. Mr. Remnantasked the Minister of Education why the number of school places used to arrive at the cost per place for a new school does not coincide with the number of places for which the school is designed.
§ Miss HorsbrughI control the cost of new schools by fixing standard limits of cost per place for primary and secondary schools respectively. But because the cost per pupil of building a new school varies with the size of the school a formula has been devised under which the number of places to be taken into account in calculating cost allows for a difference in size between schools. This is fully explained in pages 76–81 of Building Bulletin No. 2A.
§ Mr. RemnantWhen such a school is designed for 600 children and the number of cost places is 680, is not that increase in numbers designed to reduce the cost per place rather than for any other purpose?
§ Miss HorsbrughNo, Sir. If my hon. Friend will study the rather complex formula contained in the Bulletin to which I have referred he will see that we have tried to work this cost out really to get economy, and the formula has been so devised because it is quite clear that the cost per place will be greater in a very small school and less in a larger one. If my hon. Friend reads the Bulletin and still has any uncertainties perhaps he will put down another Question.
§ 35. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education when she expects to be in a position to announce an upward revision of the school building programme.
§ Miss HorsbrughI cannot undertake to forecast when an increase will be possible in the annual amount of work started on school building.
§ Mr. SwinglerHas not the time now come to have another look at the school building programme? Is it not clear that in view of the severe cut in the number of new schools started last year the programme will shortly be running down at a time when the school population is still rising very sharply? Will the Minister therefore enter into competition with her right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing to try to get her share of the building resources?
§ Miss HorsbrughIf the hon. Gentleman looks at the facts and the figures he will see that because of the change of programme this year more school building has been done than in any previous year. As I have already stated, if too many schools are started simultaneously the work is delayed. We are completing more schools before we start too many new schools; but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the new starts are well in hand and I do not think he need have the anxiety that he frequently expresses.
§ Mr. ChetwyndAre supplies of steel and labour adequate to meet the existing programme?
§ Miss HorsbrughYes, Sir. I do not want schools to start unless material is allocated for them. The reason for the delays in previous years was that too many schools were started and completion delayed. There was delay before they got their materials.
§ Mr. SwinglerDoes not the Minister appreciate that the schools completed last year were schools started under the Labour Government and that all she has achieved is to cut down the number of new schools being started, so that this year and next year fewer schools will be completed although the school population will still be rising sharply?
§ Miss HorsbrughNo. In spite of frequent answers to the hon. Gentleman it seems that I have not made the case clear. More work is being done. If the hon. Gentleman would like the figures, they are: in 1951, work done—not programmed, but done—was to the value of £34.5 million; in 1952, £37.5 million: and work approved for 1953, £40.3 million.
§ 36. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education how many primary and secondary schools are under construction at present; and how many new places they will provide when completed.
§ Miss HorsbrughOn 30th November last there were 735 new primary and 319 new secondary schools under construction in England and Wales. When completed they will provide 213,315 primary and 147,630 secondary places.
§ Mr. SwinglerBut will the Minister tell me this? It appears from the figures that there were 50 fewer primary schools under construction at this date than there were in June, 1952? Is that an increase or a decrease, according to her reasoning?
§ Miss HorsbrughIt is an increase in the number of schools completed. Merely to have a larger number under construction does not provide the school places. Figures for the 11 months, which I could give the hon. Gentleman, show that more building is being done now than ever before. The fact that there were more schools under construction would not help the school population if they were uncompleted.
§ 39. Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education the numbers of new schools on which building work started, and the value of such building work, in the calendar years 1951 and 1952, respectively; and her present estimates in these respects for 1953.
§ Miss HorsbrughComplete figures for 1952 are not yet available but during the first 11 months of that year work estimated to cost £23.5 million was started on 325 new primary and secondary schools. The figures for the same period in 1951 are £36.5 million and 514 respectively.
As the basis of the educational building programme is the financial year, I cannot give estimates for the calendar year 1953. The programme of work to be started in 1953–54 includes 409 new primary and secondary schools estimated to cost £37.4 million.
§ Mr. SwinglerIs it not a fact that, in the first 11 months of 1952, 200 fewer schools were started than in the first 11 months of 1951, and that this was a 398 very serious reduction which will mean that during this year and 1954 fewer schools will be completed and the programme will be running clown when the school population is rising fast?
§ Miss HorsbrughI am afraid that, again, the hon. Gentleman is not correct in saying that there will be fewer. Because of the change in the programme and because of the policy of starting fewer simultaneously, we are building schools more quickly, apart from building them cheaper, and more school places will therefore be available as required.
§ 40. Sir I. Fraserasked the Minister of Education how many new schools were completed in 1952; how this compares with 1951; how many places each of these programmes provided; and what was the total cost.
§ Miss HorsbrughFigures for the calendar year 1952 are not yet available. Between 1st October, 1951, and 30th September, 1952, 432 new primary and secondary schools were completed. These provided 122,855 places at an estimated cost of £27.7 million. The figures for the comparable period in 1950–51 are 323, 91,055 and £21.6 million respectively.
§ Mr. ChetwyndWould the Minister answer a simple question which seems to be at the root of all our difficulties? Will she please explain how she can finish more quickly a school which has not been started?
§ Miss HorsbrughI quite agree, but how can we possibly put children in schools which have not been completed? We do better if we have fewer schools but have them completed.
§ Sir I. FraserIs the Minister aware that sensible people who are not out to make a party point will think that she has done very well?
§ Miss HorsbrughMy hon. Friend will agree that it is doing well when, in the year 1950 to 1951, the number of places provided was 154,135, whereas in the last year that number rose to 187,615.
§ Mr. DoddsDoes not the right hon. Lady appreciate this simple point, as an example, that three schools which are to be opened in North-West Kent in Febru- 399 ary were all started by a Labour Government and that she is talking about the accomplishments of Labour? It will be in 1954 that there will be a change.
§ Captain PilkingtonMay I ask my right hon. Friend whether, to enable hon. Members opposite to understand her answers, she will make some of the places in these new schools available to them?
§ Miss HorsbrughIn reply to the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dodds), I quite agree that the schools which are being completed—with exceptions which have been built quickly—were started under a Labour Government; but if the building of schools had gone on only at the rate at which they were being built under the Labour Government the three schools he referred to would not have been completed.
§ Mr. SpeakerThis seems to be a very complicated matter. We must get on.
§ 42. Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education how many primary and secondary schools, respectively, have been given approval with starting dates during the year 1952 for the following local education authorities: Southampton, Portsmouth, Hampshire, Surrey and West Sussex; and how many primary school places and secondary school places, respectively, these schools will provide in each of the areas.
§ Miss HorsbrughAs the answer consists of a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. MorleyIs the right hon. Lady quite satisfied that by September this year there will be school places available for the children who require them in these respective areas?
§ Miss HorsbrughThe hon. Gentleman asks me if I am quite satisfied. I consider that the places will be ready. At the same time, something may go wrong during building, I quite agree, and then we should not get them. I would rather say that I am confident, from the information that I get, that the schools will be provided in time for the children.
§ Following are the figures:
§ The following table gives the number of primary and secondary schools approved with starting dates in 1952, and the number of places these schools are designed to provide, for the local education authority areas named in the question
| — | Primary | Secondary | ||
| Schools | Places | Schools | Places | |
| Southampton | 3 | 1,080 | — | — |
| Portsmouth | 3 | 880 | — | — |
| Hampshire | 4 | 960 | 1 | 360 |
| Surrey | 13 | 2,520 | 3 | 1,200 |
| Sussex West | 5 | 1,600 | 1 | 450 |
§ 43. Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Education the number of new schools built in the year 1952, for Great Britain and West Ham, respectively; how this compares with each of the years from 1945; and whether she is satisfied that the number of schools completed is sufficient to accommodate the number of children awaiting entrance into schools in Great Britain and West Ham, respectively.
§ Miss HorsbrughAs the answer to the first two parts of the Question contains a table of figures I will, with permission. circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
On the last part of the Question, there may be temporary local shortages of school accommodation in a few areas, but over the country as a whole, and in West Ham, I am satisfied that the supply of new school places will keep pace with demand.
§ Mr. LewisIf that is the case, can the Minister explain why most of the education authorities are very worried about the whole question of school building? Is it the case that they have nothing to worry about or is it that this is self-complacency on the part of the Minister?
§ Miss HorsbrughIt is neither. There is always some anxiety about getting the places in time, and the Minister has no self-complacency in the matter. I have been informed by the West Ham local education authority that there is accommodation in the area to meet the needs of all children attaining the statutory school age.
§ Following are the figures:
§ The following table gives the number of new primary and secondary schools completed in England and Wales, and in West Ham, between the end of the war and 30th September, 1952. Annual figures for the period ending 30th September, 1949, are not available.
| Period | England and Wales | West Ham |
| 1. 4.45–30.9.49 | 113 | 4 |
| 1.10.49–30.9.50 | 254 | 2 |
| 1.10.50–30.9.51 | 323 | 3 |
| 1.10.51–30.9.52 | 432 | Nil |
§ 44. Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Education if she is aware that, because of the cut in school building, difficulties are confronting educational authorities in finding adequate school places for five-year-old children, and in maintaining facilities for children to remain at school until 15 years of age; and whether she will make a complete statement on the school building programme in relationship to present and future demands on school places.
§ Miss HorsbrughThe school building programme is designed to meet the needs for additional accommodation arising from the growth in the school roll and the movement of families to new towns and housing estates. There may be temporary difficulties in a few places, as there are at present, but apart from this I do not anticipate any shortage of accommodation for children of school age.